Now to start with you are willing to accept the words of the MI5 of the British government regarding the extent of tortures they admit to using at face value but you are skeptical of accepting the central tenet upon which your justice system is based at face value ?
[clt]I know the amazing job that M15 do first hand, i know how they operate and i do believe that they do not resort to using information obtained from torture victims unless they have no other choice. The British justice system, on the other hand, is flawed. This isnt a double standard, i am allowed to view a government agency and the British justice system in different ways.[/clt]
Cat Like Thief, I think therein, your double standards and hypocrisy is laid very bare for all to see. I.e. to you, the concept of innocent until proven guilty only applies to people administering the torture, not to the people actually being tortured.
Thats almost an analytical microcosm of the history of the British.
[clt]The 'innocent until proven guilty comment was in response to your own hypocrisy. You talk of how accused should be innocent until proven guilty, however you go on to say this... [/clt]
Lets assume they stopped at water boarding, which I frankly think is bs because if the British government admits to water boarding, there is no doubt in my mind that they've actually perpetrated a lot worse.
[clt]The concept works both ways.[/clt]
I think you'll find that that Italy and Spain both pledged troops to both Iraq and Afghanistan, which really lends credence to what I just said.
If Britain is involved in wars in the middle east that they have no direct stake in just to be America's international colonial lapdog, then it opens itself up to terror attacks.
[clt]Are you suggesting that Italy and Spain are 'lapdogs' to the US? What direct stake did these countries have if not?[/clt]
Of course I'm a different person to you, because I do not believe my family or my people to be more valuable to the world as a whole to another group, nor do I feel that its justified to buy their lives by inflicting suffering on one innocent person after the other until something of value is discovered. Nobody who truly believes in the equality of human beings around the world would feel it is justified to torture one person in the small hope (often, I may even say usually) incorrect assumption that it may save another person's life.
If that were the case, why doesn't the law let the police torture criminals to get information ?
Surely that information may save people's lives.
[clt]ok.. heres the scenario i posed...
'if one of my family members were in a terror attack and died as a result... and i was given the chance to turn back time and advocate torture in order to prevent it and save their life... i would find it extremely difficult to say no to that'
If i were told that i would never look into the eyes of my loved one again. Words cant describe how i would feel. If i were told that my loved one could live but it meant that 16 men would need to be tortured.. i would. Step outside of the scenario and it becomes a different matter. Human emotion is a powerful factor that you need to consider here.. faced with this scenario, i would be so desperate to have my loved one back, calculating the wider impact of advocating torture would seem insignificant. Really think about how you would feel in that situation.. the anger, fury, rage, at having your innocent loved one taken from you like this, tell me that you would be able to push all of that to one side and deny the opporunity to see them again.[/clt]
Its not a question of may well, they definitely would.
In which case your problem is with the UK judicial system as a whole and not just the compensation paid to the terrorists.
[clt]Yes, i have many issues with the British justice system which i will not go into now.
Let me ask you something... you are head of national security in the UK.. the US has tortured detainees, gained information and has handed you a note which contains the date/time of a terrorist attack in London where thousands of lives would be lost. Would you open that note and use the information to evacuate the area.. doing so would mean using information obtained through torture. On the other hand these men have already been tortured, you dont agree with it, but its happened and you cant change that. Do you throw the note away? You preserve the reputation of your nation, but at the cost of thousands of innocent lives. How long would it take you to reach your decision?[/clt]
However I think the people who allowed it should be brought to justice .
[clt]This is a good point that hasnt been picked up on yet.[/clt]