Holocaust Denial Law

DeletedUser

Guest
Before you read this, I'd just like to clear that I am not in any way denying the holocaust or anything like that, just discussing laws :D

Do we really need laws against holocaust denial? In a number of European countries denying the holocaust is punishable by law resulting in a couple of months to a number of years in prison.

Surely this isn't necessary, it seems fairly obvious the holocaust did happen. If I was to deny the Stalinist purges it would not result in prison as people would know I was talking rubbish.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Also, here's a vaguely related Muslim cartoon:

Cartoon-Holocaust-Denial-In-Denmark-600.jpg
 
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DeletedUser613

Guest
yeah its silly to make a law about it. free speech an all that jazz
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The law must apply to more than just the Holocaust to avoid showing religious favourism. To highlight that cartoon, if they ban the denial of the Holocaust, they should ban Islamophobic cartoons as well, which equally offend Muslims (as its considered a great sin to depict Allah or the prophets etc).

That being said, any scum who denies the Holocaust needs to be shot.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The law must apply to more than just the Holocaust to avoid showing religious favourism. To highlight that cartoon, if they ban the denial of the Holocaust, they should ban Islamophobic cartoons as well, which equally offend Muslims (as its considered a great sin to depict Allah or the prophets etc).

That being said, any scum who denies the Holocaust needs to be shot.

Not to that much of an extreme. The evidence about the holocaust is massive, as it clearly did occur. What people need to recognise is that not only jews were killed during the holocaust.

I think they've received some major special treatment in the past, although I don't agree with what the extremists say you can understand why they find it quite easy to recruit new members. Communists, gays, people with mental illnesses and many other people the Nazi party did not think were Ayran were sent to the concentration camps.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
(as its considered a great sin to depict Allah or the prophets etc).
Kind of topic but this came to my attention, it makes me laugh as what you have posted is true, but many name their children Mohammed < I'm sure he is a prophet or am I mistaken? ^.^
 

DeletedUser

Guest
They are ridiculous laws. They not only supresses free speaking, but also add credability to the holocaust-deniers' theories. Why ban discussion of the subject unless there is something to hide?
 

DeletedUser

Guest

Has there ever been some serious research to verify the numbers thrown around when describing the holocaust ?
Theres evidence that the camps existed, and theres evidence that there are mass graves and that a lot of people (not solely Jews) killed in them.

However when people say that 6 million or 9 million or 11 million people died in the Holocaust, has this been verified ? Or are they invented numbers ?

If it has been verified, then can documentation of such be linked here please.
 

DeletedUser

Guest

Has there ever been some serious research to verify the numbers thrown around when describing the holocaust ?
Theres evidence that the camps existed, and theres evidence that there are mass graves and that a lot of people (not solely Jews) killed in them.

However when people say that 6 million or 9 million or 11 million people died in the Holocaust, has this been verified ? Or are they invented numbers ?

If it has been verified, then can documentation of such be linked here please.

The nazis, were very thorough, including there record keeping. 6 million jews, plus politicals, POW's, gypsies, mentally ill, disabled.............the list goes on and on. But lets not forget, the soviet union killed more of their own people during stalins time. They also persecuted Jews.

There is proof, there are written records, eye witness testimony. There is no denying the atrocities that took place.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The nazis, were very thorough, including there record keeping. 6 million jews, plus politicals, POW's, gypsies, mentally ill, disabled.............the list goes on and on. But lets not forget, the soviet union killed more of their own people during stalins time. They also persecuted Jews.

There is proof, there are written records, eye witness testimony. There is no denying the atrocities that took place.



If those records are there then link the documentation to us here. Do not claim numbers without proving them. So you say 6 million Jews were killed and the Nazis kept thorough records of this, then where are the records and how does the general public access them so that they know that this 6 million is real number and not a fictitious one ?

Nobody is denying that atrocities took place, but the scale of the atrocities seem quite debatable given the fact that a lot of proof is said to exist but rarely provided for public inspection.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Travel to Germany, Russia, Israel, Poland, any of the countries involved, there are national records, that can be inspected. The Imperial war museum in London has archives, and film footage, as do the Russians and Americans.

The information is there, you have to go and physically read it, make some effort.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Kind of topic but this came to my attention, it makes me laugh as what you have posted is true, but many name their children Mohammed < I'm sure he is a prophet or am I mistaken? ^.^

Pictoral depictions are a sin, naming your child "Mohammed" is not. :) To diffrentiate, Muslims usually refer to the prophet with the abbreviation "p.b.u.h" after him.
 

DeletedUser

Guest

Has there ever been some serious research to verify the numbers thrown around when describing the holocaust ?
Theres evidence that the camps existed, and theres evidence that there are mass graves and that a lot of people (not solely Jews) killed in them.

However when people say that 6 million or 9 million or 11 million people died in the Holocaust, has this been verified ? Or are they invented numbers ?

If it has been verified, then can documentation of such be linked here please.

5.9 million jews.
2-3 million communists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Has there ever been some serious research to verify the numbers thrown around when describing the holocaust ?
There has been lots. You raise a good point, though. A lot of those accused of "holocaust denial" have merely queried the figures. It worries me when historians are criminalised for having a non-conventional point-of-view, whatever their motives.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Travel to Germany, Russia, Israel, Poland, any of the countries involved, there are national records, that can be inspected. The Imperial war museum in London has archives, and film footage, as do the Russians and Americans.

The information is there, you have to go and physically read it, make some effort.


It can be physically read but can't be scanned and uploaded on the internet ?
That's a miserable reason to not provide we widely accessible proof of the numbers of the holocaust.

Apparently only people who go to these countries can be shown any real proof and and the other's need to take people's word for it. That's not going to convince anybody.


@ boxxy - interesting read. They provide verification that events occurred, experimentation occurred, etc. However in terms of actual numbers it always states estimates or estimates made by various people who published works. Which is perfectly all right because with numbers like this all you can do is estimate. and the links provided at the end of the article pretty much say the same thing. It doesn't answer my question, however. How did they arrive at that number ? Yes they took eyewitness reports from villages who lived near the camps and from camp survivors but those are quite rough. So for a number stated so confidently, I just can't see how it was arrived at.
 
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DeletedUser

Guest
It can be physically read but can't be scanned and uploaded on the internet ?
That's a miserable reason to not provide we widely accessible proof of the numbers of the holocaust.

Apparently only people who go to these countries can be shown any real proof and and the other's need to take people's word for it. That's not going to convince anybody.


@ boxxy - interesting read. They provide verification that events occurred, experimentation occurred, etc. However in terms of actual numbers it always states estimates or estimates made by various people who published works. Which is perfectly all right because with numbers like this all you can do is estimate. and the links provided at the end of the article pretty much say the same thing. It doesn't answer my question, however. How did they arrive at that number ? Yes they took eyewitness reports from villages who lived near the camps and from camp survivors but those are quite rough. So for a number stated so confidently, I just can't see how it was arrived at.
From what I know, a lot of it came from the nazi records (they kept exceedingly good records), as well as information about missing family members and such.
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
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I think the law's ridiculous, especially if it covers the type of questions Pervis is asking.

ie. I assume that the law would make it punishable to claim the Holocaust never happened, but would the law also punish me if I claimed that only three million jews were killed rather than six million? (I'm not under any circumstances making such a claim by the way, it's pure rhetoric.)
 

DeletedUser

Guest
It can be physically read but can't be scanned and uploaded on the internet ?
That's a miserable reason to not provide we widely accessible proof of the numbers of the holocaust.

Apparently only people who go to these countries can be shown any real proof and and the other's need to take people's word for it. That's not going to convince anybody.


@ boxxy - interesting read. They provide verification that events occurred, experimentation occurred, etc. However in terms of actual numbers it always states estimates or estimates made by various people who published works. Which is perfectly all right because with numbers like this all you can do is estimate. and the links provided at the end of the article pretty much say the same thing. It doesn't answer my question, however. How did they arrive at that number ? Yes they took eyewitness reports from villages who lived near the camps and from camp survivors but those are quite rough. So for a number stated so confidently, I just can't see how it was arrived at.

Your question is quite stupid. The Nazis were to only government there, if they didn't keep exact records then it will be impossible to get the numbers. Estimates are all that we have, but what purpose would any government have of forging results?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Your question is quite stupid. The Nazis were to only government there, if they didn't keep exact records then it will be impossible to get the numbers. Estimates are all that we have, but what purpose would any government have of forging results?



The question isn't stupid, the reply is.

Whose?
 
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