Leadership

DeletedUser5582

Guest
I know we have these chats before but not for an age and not since p2w and maybe some sort of chat about leadership/leaders in TW will up the standard.

Anyway saw this post on UK21 but figured we should talk about it on this world as UK21 forums can be a bit shoutey whilst we all lovely on here....:icon_razz:

Another comment worth adding about leadership is one that I learnt from Troj; " Leadership works for the group, not the other way around. It is, therefore, proper leadership to lead from the front..showing the way and being a good example. It is bad leadership that needs to cajole, threaten, insist or chooses to hide behind the group"

And we see these things all the time in TW. Who hasn't seen a bad leader demand his villages be stacked by his tribe to their loss?

If there are two things which win TW, they are 'activity' and 'good leadership'

Lilli
x

Is this true? If so why or if not why? What makes a good tribal leader? Despot? Council? Hugger? Kill them all pirate style (yay pirates)? Do you really need Leaders at all :icon_twisted:

Discuss!
 

DeletedUser11866

Guest
tribe makes good leadership. Leaders are nothing without his/her tribe. I.e. a leader can bark inspire motivate dominant punish its members but if they don't do anything then theres nothing to lead
 

DeletedUser6490

Guest
Good players are a dime a dozen, good leaders are not. In my experience most people that attempt to lead are absolutely horrible at it. I don't consider myself a great leader by any means, I'd claim to be a great player and a much better than average leader, but there's a huge gap between myself and the people I respect as being great leaders.

Great leaders ooze charisma. They are also very confident, often bordering on arrogance, at least from the perspective of people not in their tribes. As part of being confident, they are capable of making decisions, they don't rely on a council, councils are a crutch for mediocre leaders. As mentioned, good leaders are very rare. You will not have five good leaders in one tribe, so having five people on a council dilutes the greatness of the good leaders in the council (if there are any, which is unlikely).

And, yes, great leaders absolutely lead from the front and lead unselfishly, they do what is best for the tribe as a whole, not what is best for their tribe. Some take this even further than necessary. I personally refuse to ever request one troop in support while leading a tribe, I'd rather lead from the rim after getting nobled out than be mistaken for someone that used his tribe as a meatshield.

EDIT: Dammit, wrong forum account, this is Nauzhror.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser5582

Guest
think there is a difference between asking for support to not get rimmed (snipe anyone) and using a tribe as a meatshield. Am not sure that being rimmed is leading by example either. However, I understand what you were saying and have come across a lot of leaders who see the tribe as merely a support pool.

The question was posed to see what qualities these leaders should have? I think the bit about being able to make a decision quickly (even if not always the right one, is key.
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
Oh, there's definitely a difference between asking for support and hogging support, I fully acknowledged I take it to an extreme to avoid being grouped with the people who hog support :p Not to mention I usually am ~65% defense, so I simply don't need support when I come under fire unless an entire tribe is hitting me.

Mind you, pretty sure the times I've led on .uk I didn't exactly do it from the rim :p uk2, uk10, and uk18 I was either rank 1 or 2 when leading, but I don't think a leader needs to be the top account in their tribe by any means, but I do think they need to be active and shouldn't be asking their members to be more active than they are. They also need to use their troops for the betterment of the tribe. I have nio respect for cowards that plan ops that they aren't partaking in.

They also have to be able to tell people no. If you try to please everyone you aren't a good leader, it just can't be done. You need to be able to decide what's best for the tribe even if it isn't best for individual members. That also means being able to dismiss people who aren't pulling their own weight.
 
Last edited:

DeletedUser

Guest
Matt said:
It's a leaders' job to turn a tribe into a fist, it's the players' job to be a knuckle in that fist.

giphy.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser13240

Guest
If you make sure that your members are happy, then they will probably always do as you say. Just be very firm with them during times of war to keep them loyal to your cause.
 

Maggie Wallis

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
69
The biggest weakness of this game is the lack of quality leaders... confounded by the amount of players that mass recruit to create a 'meatshield' whilst teaching new players how not to play the game...

There are very few good leaders that have played this silly game and lead, it's very difficult to solo a rank 1 or 2 account and fully lead a tribe... leadership sucks up time, which alternatively could be spent on the players own account...

As in any form of leadership a good leader should never ask a tribemate to do something they are not willing to do themselves...

A good leader isn't your friend, friendships should never be part of a leaders decision making process...

In ever journey their will be some that don't make the grade, a good leader will remove those as soon as possible... be it having the wrong attitude, not fully taking part in tribe activities or lacking in activity... other tribemates will soon notice and allow it to effect their performance...

The ability to make decisions quickly whilst under pressure is very important, though that is true for this silly game in general... and to get most of them right...

The ability to admit when they get it wrong and correct it rather than continue down the wrong road...

Confidence is important, though the ability to hide the ego when needed is also important...

Diplomacy skills, able to put personal feeling to one side for the benefit of the tribe (unless they are able to lead a tribe that nominates from start to finish then diplomacy is moot... )

As MK said on another word forum, being fit like Chrissy is a benefit....

A stupid ability to put the tribes needs above their own, to being to deal with all the rubbish that appears in the inbox on a daily basis, to do it all for no thanks, no recognition and whilst they probably have far more important things they should be doing in RL...
 

Ban Hammer

Active Member
Reaction score
59
i think good leadership all depends on the players themselves. if we look at all the past worlds tribes across all the servers it's almost Garunteed the same tribe doesn't win all the worlds or at least the same leader doesn't win all the worlds.

i mean i have had people say to myself in the past that i'm a great / good leader but in my own views i prefer not to lead because i kinda suck at it.

but i think to make a good leader is to have the approval, loyalty and trust of the leaders members within the tribe even if sucessful or not.
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
The same tribes don't win more due to dedication than anything else. I am confident that if Pervis or mattcurr takes a tribe to any world and we are all active that we will be the top tribe. As a group we have no peers as far as I am concerned, that's as much to do with the way we work as a team as it is our individual skill though. W15, W19, W24, W26, W33, W39, W45, W47, W49, W53, TWMasters 1, TWM Summer Games, 5 HP rounds, uk3, all essentially the same tribe and all incredibly dominant (rank 1 on all except W47 and W49, but those two worlds we had less than 20 members and were rank 3).

uk10 Pandas had a lot of the same members as well, and IMO was the most dominant tribe .uk has had on any world (rank 1 with 14 members while rank 2 had 39 members).
 

DeletedUser5582

Guest
Puts on Devils advocate's robes....

You dominate as you have the collection of the best players plus on many of these worlds have not hung about for a huge amount of time (this is not a dig just an observation). How much of that domination was due to being heaps better than the local players around you than the actual leadership of the tribe?

I can think of a few worlds (UK11 would be one) where the elite tribe "dominated" but the leadership was openly ridiculed.

Surely anyone could lead a tribe made up of these players? Surely putting your Pervis/Matt Curr equivalent with a tribe of second tier players and seeing if they could be the dominant tribe would be more revealing?

Discuss
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
The W26 tribe I referenced was actually a teaching tribe, half the tribe was new players that had very little experience with the game. Thargoran led a tribe of vets (n00bs throwing axes) on the same world, it was Pervis's teaching tribe that came out on top. That was the very first world I was top 20 as a player, I was one of the students, Tom/25/crazy eye was another. I am not sure if curr can do as well with a group of randoms, but I am positive that Pervis can take a group of newbies and turn them into a tribe to be remembered.

uk10 Pandas however were indeed dominant due to players, not leaders. I am not a great leader, I'll never claim to be one. I'm not even sure I'd claim to be a good leader (better than average certainly, but average tribes are led really really poorly), but at the same time I do not think most people could lead the people I had in the tribe on uk10 mostly because they wouldn't have the respect of the players that were in the tribe. If Pervis says "Jump", his members ask, "How high?". If a random person was put in charge of a tribe full of top players and said "Jump", they'd say, "You first, tell me what it's like at the bottom."
 
Last edited:

Maggie Wallis

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
69
Haven't KnK won a lot of the .uk worlds that they have played on with a similar leadership?...

If you put all the top players in one tribe, it will clearly be 'dominant' regardless of leadership... especially during start up... though didn't Rufus test this theory to the limit on UK6?...

A good leader should be able attract and keep the top players, and be able to control them... a tribe dominating doesn't mean it has a good leader, there is nothing to stop a tribe dominating even with a bad leader, especially if it's a collection of the top players on the world...
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
While I wouldn't class myself a great leader, Rufus is an example of a much worse one in my eyes, He didn't lead in uk6, not in any real capacity, that tribe was led by Chip and Cory. I disagree that nothing stops a tribe full of top players dominating though, without a decent leader in charge you will have those players egos clashing and have internal issues tear the tribe apart. Leader might not need to direct them in how to build their account, but top players are not always the most humble creatures or the most willing to put the tribes needs above their own.

Rufus replacing me in uk10 would have made a large difference to the early stage of that world. My members would not have followed his lead. He'd have told themm to do something and rather than do it they'd have argued with him, I suspect one of them would have nobled him.
 

Maggie Wallis

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
69
I wonder whether players need an ego to be a top player, or whether the ego comes from being a top player... a discussion from for another day...

If you took 20 top players, put them in one tribe, that tribe would dominate... I agree that ego would probably be that tribes biggest threat... a leader that can stop the egos nobling each other doesn't mean they aren't a bad leader, it simply means they have one out of the many skills listed above needed to be a good leader...
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
I wonder whether players need an ego to be a top player, or whether the ego comes from being a top player... a discussion from for another day...

If you took 20 top players, put them in one tribe, that tribe would dominate... I agree that ego would probably be that tribes biggest threat... a leader that can stop the egos nobling each other doesn't mean they aren't a bad leader, it simply means they have one out of the many skills listed above needed to be a good leader...

I think we're largely in agreement really, except I'd probably class "bad leaders" as those that can't recruit effectively. That's really the thing that separates the good leaders from the bad most profoundly. I'm not saying anyone that can recruit effectively is a great leader, just that it's probably the #1 most important thing a leader needs to be able to do followed by handling diplomacy effectively. A bad leader in my eyes is someone that can do neither of those effectively, mediocre leader one that can do one of the two, a good leader someone who can do both effectively, and a great leader someone who can do both of them as well as having most/all of the other traits that make a good leader.

I'd say 80%+ of all leaders I've seen fall in the category of, "Incapable of proper recruitment or diplomacy". The other 20% or so mostly comprised of people that can recruit or handle diplomacy, but not both.

Should be noted that "handling diplomacy" does not mean ability to make alliances and NAPs, it means making the right alliances and the right NAPs, and being able to manipulate politics on a global scale, ie. propaganda is included as well in that category for me.

IMO I can recruit as well as anyone, I can handle diplomacy at a passable level, but I am not a master manipulator.
 

Maggie Wallis

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
69
Not being someone that tends to start in the core or someone that tends to run a rank 1 or even rank 10 account my view on the importance of recruitment and diplomacy is that it's not as important as you suggest...

If your hair flicks and your a 'known' player it's seems (from the outside at least) that's it's pretty straight forward to start a pre-made, stand back and try not to get blown over by the tornado created by all the hair being flicked as players clamber to join...

If your the type of player that for whatever reasons always seems to find themselves on the rimn recruitment is much more a question of picking from what is available... the key in that situation is far more about making the most out of those players and helping those players become better players... rather than controlling the egos...

Diplomacy is similar... leading 20 top players with 8 out of the top 10 ranked players on the world being tribe member at/around/just after 10K points puts the leader in a much stronger position... they can almost choose which tribes to make alliances/NAPs or to remove... rather than making having to make the most of the limited options available... It's very difficult (or I might just be very bad at it) to effect the worlds politics as the leader of a lowly ranked rim tribe... where as I assume as leader of a rank 1 tribe that is dominating it is far easier to effect the worlds politics and to encourage other leaders/players to do your binding...

My view is that all the skills highlighted above are important, in different situations and at different times some skills become more important... but surely to be a great leader, they should be able to lead their tribe to be the best it can be, be that rank 1 and dominating or to give the rank 1 dominating tribe a far tougher fight than they were expecting, even if it ends in defeat...

I appreciate that my views are biased by the fact that I have only lead from one of those extremes, never through choice, it just seems to happen...
 

Nauzhror

Well-Known Member
Reaction score
106
The reason I value recruitment very highly is because even on the rim my methods do not change. My standards change, but not my methods. I sit all applicants prior to inviting them, I do not believe in mass recruitment followed by later chopping the fat, I believe in checking for fat before inviting. If someone will not allow me to sit them due to trust issues I do not want them in my tribe as they would not mesh with the environment I intend to create anyway. I do not believe you should be in a tribe if you do not trust your duke, and if you do not trust me I will not lead you. I think it also helps being known and/or being charasmatic a lot even on the rim in regards to recruitment because it allows you to poach other tribes best members effectively. You can argue that if they can be poached they aren't worth having anyway because if they weren't loyal to their first tribe they won't be loyal to yours either. I'd disagree, loyalty is like respect, it is earned, not freely given, people are not inherently loyal or disloyal.
 

DeletedUser13240

Guest
^This post deserves rep but it seems I have given you too much in one day :icon_rolleyes:.
 

Ban Hammer

Active Member
Reaction score
59
If someone will not allow me to sit them due to trust issues I do not want them in my tribe as they would not mesh with the environment I intend to create anyway. I do not believe you should be in a tribe if you do not trust your duke, and if you do not trust me I will not lead you.

i want to pick up on this part just briefly here. every leader i have had in the past that has sat my account has always sabotaged my account.

everytime i have been away on business for a few days and set my leader as sitter he / she themselves as a leader has internalled my villages.

so for me personally nobody gets my sit although if my leader wanted information such as troops i would not hide them but i just wanted to point out that even some of the good players (yes i consider myself to be good :p) will not allow account sits because of these problems especially when the leader of my tribe at this current time threatens to dismiss me for not giving her my sit yet she is a 2k Player that has no clue how to play lol.

i hope i was clear i am rather tired so there is prolly alot of typo's
 
Top