Should the UK be part of the EU?

[DeletedUser]

Hope I havn't muddled up any word this time, I really need to get the spellcheck addon

One of the apostrophies in this sentence ruined my Christmas...

The MEP's don't get paid a huge amount considering the job they're doing either.

 

[DeletedUser]

1 - Yes other countries could turn the EU down, but are far less likely to turn them down than Britain by itself. Britain would not get a better deal by itself if it wasn't part of the EU

Yes, we would. Its top 5 trading partners are the US, Germany, Netherlands, France and Irish Republic. You really think the leading 2 countries in the EU (Germany and France) would stop trade? And if they are the 2 leading countries other countries are going to follow them and be influenced by them. You also believe Netherlands would want to stop trading? The amount of shipments which run through their harbours and ports is actually slightly scary and the trading routes are busy and profitable for them, and us.

Spoiler: ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ck-Britain-joining-Nafta-says-US-senator.html

2 - I was trying to explain how closely linked European countries were and how often they trade with one another. It therefore makes sense to have a union such as the EU to regulate this. If Britain was to keep cutting itself off from Europe it stands to reason that trade would suffer.

I think you underestimate the influence the UK has on the rest of the world and its importance as a trading partner. We have a tunnel which joins England and France together for goodness sakes! :lol: We have the largest stock exchange in Europe and are one of the top three financial centers in the world (the other 2 being Tokyo and New York). Europe can't afford to be cut off from Britain.

3 - I clearly am not saying that France is just going to attack us as that would be utter rubbish. I was trying to make the point (when I mentioned Turkey) that they wouldn't say decide to support Iran or support terrorists. I'm not talking about all out full scale war here. You may have got confused with when I mentioned the EU's past role in preventing conflicts occuring throughout Europe.

I don't understand this bit? We're not going to be supporting terrorists anytime soon... At least I hope not! :icon_redface:

4 - Foreign Aid most certainly does not always go to a good cause. its a proven fact that aid is very uneffective and more often than not is spent on arms and ends up in corrupt politicans pockets.

The EU may have fairly high administstrative costs, but it is working on cutting them down. The MEP's don't get paid a huge amount considering the job they're doing either. Our own civil service has problems with its pay and we as a country waste huge amounts of NHS funding on inefficiency.

At lot of it does, yes. But a lot of it also provides a chance at life for a lot of people. You just helped my point aswell; We do waste lots of money... so how about we stop giving the EU the money and try use it sort ourselves out? :icon_razz:

5 - You don't appear to have made any form of argument over the extradition apart from saying its a disaster. The Bristish government is soveriegn so if an extradition was very out of line they could stop it. I think the points I made in my previous post explain more on this.

Extradition is a disaster. We are usually kept from having our people extradited yet commonly we have criminals extradited back to their countries. Considering we have a better jailing system than most countries in Europe I think this is unfair.

6 - On the subject of forign aid I point you to my earlier comments. A certain percentage will most probably go to someone invovled in the EU structure but improvements are still being made in some of the pooroer EU countries.

Ok... ? I don't deny this I just feel it could be spent better, elsewhere. Possibly on our massive debt?

7 - Whether or not the globe has warmed up (there are all sort of tudies trying to prove different things) doesn't really matter in this context. The EU attempts to reduce pollution which can only be a good thing. I'm pretty sure that what we're pumping out can't be doing any good so international effort needs to be made to reduce it.

Ok, you lot are just going round in circle. We'll/should keep to our goals for global warming - it doesn't matter! There are other areas we are involved with which we are also reducing our pollution for. Oh, and, the Green Party got a seat in the election... woop! :icon_razz:

8 - I said my regard for UKIP was low, not that they were the same. I can assure you I do have a decent knowledge of political parties, took an A level with a unit on that. I just don't think UKIP are a particulalry good party. Can't really say there's any political party that I really support fully at the moment

Well this is just all opinion so... :lol:

9 - I agree that UKIP isn't facist, people in the rest of Europe tend to get a bit jumpy about facism UKIP just don't handle themselves properly in the parliament.

I think the biggest problem Britain has is that we always seem to be trying to work against the EU as if its some evil organisation seeking to drag us into ruin. Perhaps if people were to cooperate with the EU we might benefit more form it rather than dragging our feet.

And you get to decide this why? :lol: I think they can handle themselves how they want tbh. They may be acting like a lot of twats sometimes but I can bet they do a lot of work and had to do more than an A Level to get where they are.

& I don't agree; I say we pull out. (giggle) But this is all just opinion again.

10 - There's no half way with human rights, you can't give them to some and not others as you seemed to be indicating. I can't think of a way they could change it so criminals don't benefit. The sad thing is, there's always going to be people playing the system.

Oh god. Read what Garg said... :icon_confused: He means that they should be changed and abolish some. Not give rights to some people and not others.

11 - It works both ways, British people can move anywhere in the EU.

Yes, this country is partly-run on immigration but you suddenly think if we left the EU we would halt all immigration? (this is more referring to your previous comment.)

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, we would. Its top 5 trading partners are the US, Germany, Netherlands, France and Irish Republic. You really think the leading 2 countries in the EU (Germany and France) would stop trade? And if they are the 2 leading countries other countries are going to follow them and be influenced by them. You also believe Netherlands would want to stop trading? The amount of shipments which run through their harbours and ports is actually slightly scary and the trading routes are busy and profitable for them, and us.

Spoiler: ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ck-Britain-joining-Nafta-says-US-senator.html

Surely if our biggest trading partners are in Europe it makes sense to be in a trading organisation with them? Obviously they're not just going to cease all trading with us, but they're hardly going to let us go without some sort of penalty.

The argument that our biggest trading partners are in Europe means we're evidently doing the right thing in joining a trading blocwith oour closest suppliers.

And that new article is dated June 2000. How many people in this country would back joining an American trade organisation,l hard enough to persuade them Europe is a good idea! America screw over other countries in trade far more than Europe.

I think you underestimate the influence the UK has on the rest of the world and its importance as a trading partner. We have a tunnel which joins England and France together for goodness sakes! :lol: We have the largest stock exchange in Europe and are one of the top three financial centers in the world (the other 2 being Tokyo and New York). Europe can't afford to be cut off from Britain.

And neither can Britain afford to be cut off from Europe, it works both ways. All these arguments you've made about Britains close ties with Europe surely makes it screamingly obvious that working together is a good idea!

We do have one of the best stock exchanges, other Europena coutries have things we need too. Hence cooperation in a union works well.

I don't understand this bit? We're not going to be supporting terrorists anytime soon... At least I hope not! :icon_redface:

I was referring to Turkey and its being in the Middle East near a couple of "problem" countries.

At lot of it does, yes. But a lot of it also provides a chance at life for a lot of people. You just helped my point aswell; We do waste lots of money... so how about we stop giving the EU the money and try use it sort ourselves out? :icon_razz:

Consider the EU an investment, it may not get you everything you want straight away, but in the longterm it'll ease our problems.

Why do you think our goovernement was happy to assist in a Euro bailout? We rely on business in Europe.

Extradition is a disaster. We are usually kept from having our people extradited yet commonly we have criminals extradited back to their countries. Considering we have a better jailing system than most countries in Europe I think this is unfair.

As I said, its worked better than the American one. Perhaps as I said if we invovled ourself more we could devote our time to solving any problems there are with extradition.

All justice systems have flaws, but at least this ends the idea that getting on a plane can allow you to get away with a crime.

Ok... ? I don't deny this I just feel it could be spent better, elsewhere. Possibly on our massive debt?

I don't feel we'd make a much better use of it. As I said earlier its more of a longterm investment helping other European countries. When we're in our time of need we'll be pleased with a little help from the rest of Europe. (Though I bet the tabloids will still find soemthing to moan about)

Ok, you lot are just going round in circle. We'll/should keep to our goals for global warming - it doesn't matter! There are other areas we are involved with which we are also reducing our pollution for. Oh, and, the Green Party got a seat in the election... woop! :icon_razz:

Not sure what this is arguing so I'll leave it alone :icon_biggrin:

Well this is just all opinion so... :lol:

I was basically saying I didn't think UKIP were the best polticial party to use as a source (And my opinion that they're not very good )

And you get to decide this why? :lol: I think they can handle themselves how they want tbh. They may be acting like a lot of twats sometimes but I can bet they do a lot of work and had to do more than an A Level to get where they are.

I assumed the use of "I think" indicated an opinion but if it means I get t decide then fair enough :icon_biggrin:

& I don't agree; I say we pull out. (giggle) But this is all just opinion again.

You've argued against the EU yet now seem to be syaing that the government can handle itself (which I agree with) but the government appear to be Pro EU on the whole so far which kind of deafeats your point. Plus this forum is for opinions and discussions on world situations and events so its fine to have opinions on matters even if you're not the one implementing them.[/QUOTE]

Oh god. Read what Garg said... :icon_confused: He means that they should be changed and abolish some. Not give rights to some people and not others.

Which rights should be abolished then? Just because there's some people who take advantage of our liberal nature means we should start abolishing rights for everyone? If you start abolishing rights its a slippery slope...

And on what Garg said he seemed to be indicating that the problem was criminals getting the rights.

Yes, this country is partly-run on immigration but you suddenly think if we left the EU we would halt all immigration? (this is more referring to your previous comment.)

I don't think we'd halt all immigration but if the sort of people got in who'd leave the EU then I think we'd be having severe problems in regards to immigration.

 

[DeletedUser282]

Surely if our biggest trading partners are in Europe it makes sense to be in a trading organisation with them? Obviously they're not just going to cease all trading with us, but they're hardly going to let us go without some sort of penalty.
The point is that it is a political and economic union, if it was just trading then I would be for it. and their is no reason, as has been pointed out, for tariffs to be put up
The argument that our biggest trading partners are in Europe means we're evidently doing the right thing in joining a trading blocwith oour closest suppliers.

And that new article is dated June 2000. How many people in this country would back joining an American trade organisation,l hard enough to persuade them Europe is a good idea! America screw over other countries in trade far more than Europe.

And neither can Britain afford to be cut off from Europe, it works both ways. All these arguments you've made about Britains close ties with Europe surely makes it screamingly obvious that working together is a good idea!

We do have one of the best stock exchanges, other Europena coutries have things we need too. Hence cooperation in a union works well.



I was referring to Turkey and its being in the Middle East near a couple of "problem" countries.



Consider the EU an investment, it may not get you everything you want straight away, but in the longterm it'll ease our problems.
No it won't
Why do you think our goovernement was happy to assist in a Euro bailout? We rely on business in Europe.
We don't rely on business in Europe, but if the entire Eurozone economy collapses (this collapse is being aided by the Euro, then we get screwed


As I said, its worked better than the American one. Perhaps as I said if we invovled ourself more we could devote our time to solving any problems there are with extradition.

All justice systems have flaws, but at least this ends the idea that getting on a plane can allow you to get away with a crime.
The European arrest warrant is a total disaster, this has been explained to you. I'm not going to do it again



I don't feel we'd make a much better use of it. As I said earlier its more of a longterm investment helping other European countries. When we're in our time of need we'll be pleased with a little help from the rest of Europe. (Though I bet the tabloids will still find soemthing to moan about)




Not sure what this is arguing so I'll leave it alone :icon_biggrin:



I was basically saying I didn't think UKIP were the best polticial party to use as a source (And my opinion that they're not very good )



I assumed the use of "I think" indicated an opinion but if it means I get t decide then fair enough :icon_biggrin:

& I don't agree; I say we pull out. (giggle) But this is all just opinion again.

You've argued against the EU yet now seem to be syaing that the government can handle itself (which I agree with) but the government appear to be Pro EU on the whole so far which kind of deafeats your point. Plus this forum is for opinions and discussions on world situations and events so its fine to have opinions on matters even if you're not the one implementing them.



Which rights should be abolished then? Just because there's some people who take advantage of our liberal nature means we should start abolishing rights for everyone? If you start abolishing rights its a slippery slope...
Are you a bit stupid or do you choose to just ignore what I have stated?
I'M NOT SAYING ABOLISH EVERYONE'S RIGHTS !!!!!!!!!

I don't think we'd halt all immigration but if the sort of people got in who'd leave the EU then I think we'd be having severe problems in regards to immigration.
I see, so basically you are saying that the people who disagree with you aren't competent enough to handle immigration policy? A proper policy like most countries have were people who can benefit the country can come in and those who can't, can't would benefit the economy more, (+ genuine asylum seekers obv.)

Answers in Bold.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'll get some sort of answer posted tomorrow hopefully This seems to be one of the more heated topics

 

[DeletedUser]

I'll get some sort of answer posted tomorrow hopefully This seems to be one of the more heated topics

Same =D I'm not really in the mood for debating though :icon_cry: Sorry about being slightly heated with you towards the end btw!

 

[DeletedUser]

The point is that it is a political and economic union, if it was just trading then I would be for it. and their is no reason, as has been pointed out, for tariffs to be put up

Trading generally leads to political though. In order to improve trade, each country tries to sync themselves to the others. I think we've argued the tariffs point enough without getting anywhere.

Consider the EU an investment, it may not get you everything you want straight away, but in the longterm it'll ease our problems.
No it won't
Why do you think our goovernement was happy to assist in a Euro bailout? We rely on business in Europe.
We don't rely on business in Europe, but if the entire Eurozone economy collapses (this collapse is being aided by the Euro, then we get screwed

Not much I can really say to a plain "No it won't"

We do rely pretty heavily on business in Europe (as Radarr pointed out in his post). They're our close neighbours and we engage in a lot of trade with them. Yes, if the eurozone does collapse we will suffer as the eurozone consists of everyone around us and it would crush our trade. Therefore our support for the Eurozone is beneficial (like our Ireland Bailout)

The European arrest warrant is a total disaster, this has been explained to you. I'm not going to do it again

I agree that its best we leave this point as no matter what i say I just get the response "its a disaster"

Are you a bit stupid or do you choose to just ignore what I have stated?
I'M NOT SAYING ABOLISH EVERYONE'S RIGHTS !!!!!!!!!

I think you've misinterpreted me. I was not indicating you wanted to remove all rights, I was suggesting as you mentioned about removing certain rights. And I was saying that everyone would lose that right, not just criminals. But I see we're not really getting our points to each other too clearly.

I see, so basically you are saying that the people who disagree with you aren't competent enough to handle immigration policy? A proper policy like most countries have were people who can benefit the country can come in and those who can't, can't would benefit the economy more, (+ genuine asylum seekers obv.)

I'm saying that the political parties that would have us leave the Euro likely wouldn't handle immigration policy too well. Theres' the BNP which i'm sure you don't need me to explain and there's UKIP who with their isolationist policy would probably not handle immigration as effectively as other parties would manage. Remember, its just an opinion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Quite. I ask, where was the people's representation on this matter? It seems we lack our voice on the matter by our government elect.

 

[DeletedUser6960]

Quite Simply NO!

 

[DeletedUser]

EU stinks, U.K. rocks! U.S. Kinda rocks!

 

[DeletedUser3312]

See th EU human rights court trying to dictate Britain giving prisoners the right to vote? pfft

 

[DeletedUser]

I think that this blog explains very clearly why the UK should not be part of the EU: http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/.

 

[DeletedUser282]

Whilst this is a necrobump and Doomdealer isn't likely to read this, but I enjoy being right so I'll post it anyway.

You appear to be ignoring this point every single time. It is fact that as part of the one of the biggest trading blocs we do benefit. Other countries can't exactly turn us down (a tactic the US often uses). We would not get better deals on our own, we just don't have the economic power to keep up with the bigger players. So they would have an advanjage over us.

Iceland (also Switzerland) now has a free trade deal with China. We do not. Iceland also has free trade with the EU. The EU is damaging to us in terms of trade as it is a customs union with a common external tariff. The EU is a sclerotic protectionist block which also has the fortune to include a zone with a single currency without being a single country and so is collapsing horribly. Also you don't really seem to understand how international trade works.

 

[DeletedUser2137]

sadly I remember us going into the EU. If you had asked me this question at the time it would have been a resounding NO!!! However, since then the face of britain has changed beyond recognition. We no longer have a fraction of the industries we once had. Moreover we have not been replacing the unique skills needed to keep the wheels of industries going, nor developing new ones as necessary. A lot of the traditional skills have either shrunken or disappeared altogether. Such is the nature of our business within Europe, we have got ourselves into a position where, though a huge number of people (including ME) do want very much to come out of the EU but recognize that at this point in time it simply is not possible. It would represent economic suicide. However that doesnt mean we have to stay in forever nor does it mean we have to put up with the continual dictatorship. If we really want as a majority to exit the EU then the first thing needed is to vote in a government that will work towards this as a goal with a clear timescale. It would therefore have a momentus job on to revive past industries so we do not have to rely on imports, to strengthen those we already have and to build new ones for the future. How they would do that Im not sure...I aint no politician.

 

[DeletedUser282]

Leaving the EU wouldn't need to damage trade. There would be no reason for them to put up tariffs on us, they have free trade agreements with a lot of other countries and we buy more from them than they do from us so tariffs would hurt them far more and think about it reasonably, are businesses in Europe going to make it politically possible for EU countries to go into a trade war with Britain, no. Germany industry especially for this.

Also the issues you see aren't really very reasonable. We don't need to revive past industries and try to stop importing things, attempting to recreate industries that simply weren't internationally competitive through government action is a horrible idea, (If we can do 1 thing better than another country and they can do something better than us, then we should both specialize in that thing international trade is a good thing as it allows specialization and any basic comparative advantage model shows that trade is largely a good thing. Indeed outside the EU we could negotiate our own trade deals with other countries which would also be a good thing.

Admittedly I'm not quite as anti-EU as I was when I made posts in this thread before, but I still think it is not worth the cost and the flagrant lack of democracy of the entire structure of it is enough for me to want to be out of it if it is was economically neutral for us.

 

[DeletedUser]

I personally would rather not be part of the EU however, I am wise enough to know that I do not fully understand the pros and cons of leaving the EU yet I have never heard an argument that makes me want to be in then EU.
My two main concerns are human rights and immigration.

I have no problem with foreigners coming to and working in Britain, but those who can't work ie. because they are illegal or can't speak English have no business being here. One individual obtaining citizenship and then bringing over their extended family who wouldnt be allowed in otherwise. People who come across with no other motivation than to comit crime. People who want to come to Britain but then set up mini 'home lands' with their own laws and have no intention of integrating with the community. People who come to Britain to preach racial hatred against British leading to events such as the recent high profile one on the news.
If they benefit the country then put out the welcome mat, to all other slam the door in their face.

With regards to human rights, give me a break. The only people who invoke human rights are criminals. The only time people hear about human rights is when the news reports of criminals utilising yet another loop hole in the system. Victims by their very nature have had their human rights violated but it isn't their rights that get upheld. Years and years and millions of pounds trying to deport one individual and why, because we are part of the EU.
People convicted of crime should be deported at the earliest opportunity but they aren't. Why do we have to hang on to so many criminals, because we are part of the EU.

You can bang on about trade, GDP's and the rest but these aren't the issues that build up resentment against the EU.

The last election was the first time I ever bothered to vote and I voted conservative why? Because I could not in bear to vote for Brown, UKIP would be a wasted vote, and LIb Deb are EU lovers but the next election, whoever bashes EU membership the most will get my vote.