Increasing Tuition Fees : Yay or nay?

[DeletedUser613]

To be fair your not likely to find anyone under 20 (or the parent of someone under 20) who isn't against the tuition fee's.

im under 20, going to uni soon. Clearly I don't want a rise in tuition fees but at the moment most people arguing against them have no other plausible alternative and money cannot just appear.

 

[DeletedUser]

So, you think somebody who has been working in this supermarket for 5 years with experience and life experience for that matter with the same qualifications as somebody fresh out of uni won't get the job? LOL.
Student A remains in debt for the rest of his life? but dosen't actually have to pay it until hes earning a decent salary anyway, so its not too much of a bother for him at the moment.

Just wanted to focus on this bit really.
Firstly, firms are keen to employ younger people over older people. Yes, it's ageism, yes, it's not allowed, but they do it anyway deep down. This is actually because they cost less (on average) on insurance and also are usually more hard-working and committed to the job in hand as they are ready to start their career.

Secondly, student A will have to repay the debt while working in a supermarket as the limit the Tories are proposing is £23k, virtually any full-time job (maybe some part-time ones) will exceed this limit unfortunately.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

Spoiler: .

Please pick another area where they can cut funding and come back to me.

The BBC.

How does increasing tuition fees mean they will be forced to drop out?????

Where did I say they'll be forced to drop out? :icon_confused:
I stated that less people would be able to go to university because of these prices.

THIS IS A LOAN, you don't have to have the money now any more than you did before, it's based on the future. Being less priveliged youths won't mean that in later life if they get a university education, they are less likely to be able to get a job and pay their loan off.

Please see my scenorio - Explains all.
Loans, have interest with them, remember?

Oh, whats this, a news report that I apparently don't read. http://www.channel4.com/news/george-osborne-promises-to-see-spending-cuts-through. Whats this? Healthcare being ring-fenced? In a news report that I apparently don't read?

Click!

So, you don't know what I different government is?
Perhaps I should spell it our for you, CallMESA said that "the government failed to stop this from happenening" referring to the defecit. But I don't know if you have noticed, the government has now changed, see it was labour and now its tory/libdem , k? So it's quite hard for the conservatives to stop it when they weren't actually in power, please read things properly or return to doing your homework.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

EXACTLY its the peoples choice, thats why indead of eliminating these courses like CatLikeThief suggested, WHICH WOULD stop people choosing them if the fees are raised people are unlikely to do these degrees that are unlikely to have good job prospects. Clearly you have not understood any of this argument.

Well raising fees is the more profitable way of stopping people choosing what they want. Not everyone is made of money.

Again your failure to understand the ongoing discussion, the debate was to raise the fees when people are successful in later life, this does not mean they are priveleged, you seem to think anyone froma deprived background can not get far in the world and you are wrong.

You seem to not understand the word "Interest".
It may take 10 years for a student to find a proper job (Well a job you're talking about). That 15k student loan he had before isn't going to stay at that amount.

So, you think somebody who has been working in this supermarket for 5 years with experience and life experience for that matter with the same qualifications as somebody fresh out of uni won't get the job? LOL.

So you think stacking shelves is the way to become a manager?
So you think an employer will choose someone who's been stacking shelves for five years of his life, and has probably forgot a lot of what he was taught in uni; over a fresh young person straight out of uni?

Student A remains in debt for the rest of his life? but dosen't actually have to pay it until hes earning a decent salary anyway, so its not too much of a bother for him at the moment.

He's being held back because of his debts. This will continue to demoralise him to even look for a job knowing that as soon as he's got one he's going to be what 30k in debt?

Slaughtering you opponents, I lol'd I really did, you have about the argumentative ability of a wounded rabbit.

You have the IQ of a spoon. I'm better at insulting, trust me :icon_wink:

Seriosuly though. Your views are extremely short-minded. It seems like you're completely unable to see the bigger picture, or maybe it's just your inability to think "out of the box". I don't know, what I do know is that this argument you've put farward to me is a load of "bull" for lack of a better word. You've clearly rushed it, and in that missed a lot of key points.
You haven't put farward anything debatable, so I'm thinking that this debate is a complete waste of my time since you're stubburn and very short-minded.

If your next post is full of the same load of crap, I won't bother posting.

 

[DeletedUser613]

Just wanted to focus on this bit really.
Firstly, firms are keen to employ younger people over older people. Yes, it's ageism, yes, it's not allowed, but they do it anyway deep down. This is actually because they cost less (on average) on insurance and also are usually more hard-working and committed to the job in hand as they are ready to start their career.

Secondly, student A will have to repay the debt while working in a supermarket as the limit the Tories are proposing is £23k, virtually any full-time job (maybe some part-time ones) will exceed this limit unfortunately.

Perhaps you are right but I cannot for a moment believe they would pick somebody fresh out of uni compared to somebody with 5 years experience in that exact company. Experience means a hell of a lot.

Um well from what ive looked at the average wage in the UK is about 25k per year, so I don't know where you got the idea virtually every full time job exceeds that, because judging by the average they don't :S

 

[DeletedUser613]

The BBC.
The bbc is funded by license fee, you can't simply take license fee money and spend it elsewhere


Where did I say they'll be forced to drop out? :icon_confused:
I stated that less people would be able to go to university because of these prices.

"Increasing tuition fees means that less priveliged youths will be forced to drop out of education at the age of 18."
That is what you stated, you claimed it would have more of an effect on less privileged youths, which clearly I have proved, it dosent


Please see my scenorio - Explains all.
Loans, have interest with them, remember?
Student loans are far cheaper interest-wise than any other form of borrowing

Click!

You have gone for Healthcare to all public sector jobs now? lol. You claimed that "many jobs in this area are going to be massively cut." when I pointed out healthcare was ringfenced you changed that to public sector jobs. Are all public sector workers healthcare workers now?


That makes no sense whatsoever.
Perhaps if you had read what we had been dicussing before you would understand it, or maybe its just out of your grasp

Well raising fees is the more profitable way of stopping people choosing what they want. Not everyone is made of money.

You honestly think the government make a profit from universities? People can still choose what they want but the raising of fees makes people more practical, they will be looking for what will give them a job, not what they will enjoy more.

You seem to not understand the word "Interest".
It may take 10 years for a student to find a proper job (Well a job you're talking about). That 15k student loan he had before isn't going to stay at that amount.

As I have said student loan interest rates are low and most graduates don't take 10 years to find a job


So you think stacking shelves is the way to become a manager?
So you think an employer will choose someone who's been stacking shelves for five years of his life, and has probably forgot a lot of what he was taught in uni; over a fresh young person straight out of uni?
Experience always matters, who says this person has just been stacking shelves for 5 years. Yes, a man who has been in the shop for 5 years, knows how it runs, knows the ins and outs against some inexperienced kid from uni


He's being held back because of his debts. This will continue to demoralise him to even look for a job knowing that as soon as he's got one he's going to be what 30k in debt?
Having debts won't hold you back, if anything it should motivate you to get a better job to pay them off, as soon as hes got one he will start having to make payments, yes the same payments as he would have before the fee change so its not relevant.


You have the IQ of a spoon. I'm better at insulting, trust me :icon_wink:

Seriosuly though. Your views are extremely short-minded. It seems like you're completely unable to see the bigger picture, or maybe it's just your inability to think "out of the box". I don't know, what I do know is that this argument you've put farward to me is a load of "bull" for lack of a better word. You've clearly rushed it, and in that missed a lot of key points.
You haven't put farward anything debatable, so I'm thinking that this debate is a complete waste of my time since you're stubburn and very short-minded.

If your next post is full of the same load of crap, I won't bother posting.

oh, good one. No your not and your arguments are quite weak.

No. Your argument is being taken down at every turn. Thinking out of the box is what I'm doing in trying to put myself in the position of the person who has to cut something rather than the pissed off student who is annoyed about fees (I'm in the same boat, ill be paying them too). Thats not the attitude which is productive, its a more short minded one. A productive attitude would be one which would find other savings to be made.

Don't bother posting, I really don't mind. All you really do is ignore points in favor of your own approach.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

oh, good one. No your not and your arguments are quite weak.

No. Your argument is being taken down at every turn. Thinking out of the box is what I'm doing in trying to put myself in the position of the person who has to cut something rather than the pissed off student who is annoyed about fees (I'm in the same boat, ill be paying them too). Thats not the attitude which is productive, its a more short minded one. A productive attitude would be one which would find other savings to be made.

Don't bother posting, I really don't mind. All you really do is ignore points in favor of your own approach.

*Sigh*
I will completely demolish everything you've just said for the last time. Your inability to see reason, or to even comprehend my scenorio is worrying and shows me that you're a weak opponent, but one that deserves a reply.
You shall have it

 

[DeletedUser]

Um well from what ive looked at the average wage in the UK is about 25k per year, so I don't know where you got the idea virtually every full time job exceeds that, because judging by the average they don't :S

Well from the scenario proposed by Mattyflan, I assumed that this person would be in full-time work, in which the average income is ~£32,000. Considering this it shouldn't be too hard to go above that limit really, especially if this person has had a degree that relates to this profession remotely (sales & management?). Maybe I did slightly exaggerate that though, been hearing lots of rumours of people earning 60k a year after coming out of Oxbridge :icon_razz:

 

[DeletedUser613]

*Sigh*
I will completely demolish everything you've just said for the last time. Your inability to see reason, or to even comprehend my scenorio is worrying and shows me that you're a weak opponent, but one that deserves a reply.
You shall have it

Of course I look forward to reading you bs once more.

 

[DeletedUser]

Olly comes in for his little bit to say.
Well. As I was actually saying about the fact that there is a threshold for paying back your loan in this sense they aren't linked, if you are unemployed then you won't be paying back the loan at that time so it won't have an effect on your situation either way.
You could just as easily come out of uni with the past fees, be unemployed and have a smaller debt but either way you aren't paying it back yet.

Sorry, but ya know I was discussing this before you came in, so technically YOU came in for your small bit to say.

You begin paying back Tuition fees once you are earning £21,000 or more. The Minimum wage for over 21's is £12,334.40 (yearly salary). If I was unemployed then I would consider myself in a worse off position than having to pay back Student loans.

A few scenarios:

1. You take a mickey mouse course. You are unable to get a job, get a job working in retail convincing yourself it will only be temporary. Finally you progress up the ladder but unfortunately it's not in your degree respective. You finally earn £21,000 and then you have to start paying back EVEN MORE of a fee for a degree you have had no use for.

2. You take a good degree, you get a good job. You're earning ~22k once you leave University, you have to begin paying back student loans straight away. This leaves you with less disposable income. The Property market becomes even harder to get into, considering it's hard enough already. Eventually get a house and a pay rise. Oh wait, now that you're paying a mortgage, you've still got student loans to pay off. Forever sitting on your back until the last penny is paid.

3. You take a good degree, you don't manage to get a good job. See Scenario 1. Even more fees to pay off.

Do any of those Scenarios look good to you? They certainly don't to me. How could anybody think that making the younger generation pay more (when they're statistically worse off) be a good idea? Why aren't taxes being put up on the bankers? No, it makes sense to charge the future doctors etc.. now, just to get a head start.

It's making the younger generation pay for the mistakes of the old, just like Global warming.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

Spoiler: .

The bbc is funded by license fee, you can't simply take license fee money and spend it elsewhere

The BBC is run by the government. The license fee is a tax. Why not just get rid of the BBC reduce the cost of the license fee and call it a tax on luxuries? That's one way the Government could go. One way you asked for.

"Increasing tuition fees means that less priveliged youths will be forced to drop out of education at the age of 18."
That is what you stated, you claimed it would have more of an effect on less privileged youths, which clearly I have proved, it dosent

No you clearly proved this:

Being less priveliged youths won't mean that in later life if they get a university education, they are less likely to be able to get a job and pay their loan off.

WTF Does that mean?

What I'm saying is that if my parents are on 9k a year (Both of them) then they aren't going to afford to pay for me to go to uni. What you're saying is that I could go to uni anyway and not have to pay a loan for years to come. Well, in response to that I'm saying, what if I can't find a good job there's nobody to bail me out. What you're saying is that I don't ever need to pay the loan untill I'm getting an income. What I'm saying is, that'll put me on the doal and without a career.

Student loans are far cheaper interest-wise than any other form of borrowing

So? I'm still in bloody debt with interest. Without a decent job I'm always going to be in interest.
Please re-read my above answer before posting

You have gone for Healthcare to all public sector jobs now? lol. You claimed that "many jobs in this area are going to be massively cut." when I pointed out healthcare was ringfenced you changed that to public sector jobs. Are all public sector workers healthcare workers now?

Well, I went into explain what the conservatives are doing on a wider scale to 500,000 people. But ok, if you want to keep it in a minor area, I can duck down to your minds capcity: click
also

Perhaps if you had read what we had been dicussing before you would understand it, or maybe its just out of your grasp

So you think that something I'd previously posted in my own words before is out of my grasp? Do you even think before you post?
Anyhow... Lets take another look.

Spoiler: .

So, you don't know what I different government is?
Perhaps I should spell it our for you, CallMESA said that "the government failed to stop this from happenening" referring to the defecit. But I don't know if you have noticed, the government has now changed, see it was labour and now its tory/libdem , k? So it's quite hard for the conservatives to stop it when they weren't actually in power, please read things properly or return to doing your homework.

No, still don't get it. I think you're referring to the deficit and trying to blame it all on labour, but surely you're not that stupid since the defecit was inevitable.

You honestly think the government make a profit from universities? People can still choose what they want but the raising of fees makes people more practical, they will be looking for what will give them a job, not what they will enjoy more.

Well that's not the governments decision is it? We're not communists.

As I have said student loan interest rates are low and most graduates don't take 10 years to find a job

One word. Recession.

Experience always matters, who says this person has just been stacking shelves for 5 years. Yes, a man who has been in the shop for 5 years, knows how it runs, knows the ins and outs against some inexperienced kid from uni

This doesn't even deserve an answer. Re-read everything I've said about the scenorio. Stop speaking from your arse.
If you don't understand it, don't post.

Having debts won't hold you back, if anything it should motivate you to get a better job to pay them off, as soon as hes got one he will start having to make payments, yes the same payments as he would have before the fee change so its not relevant.

Read the scenorio again...

....

 

[DeletedUser]

[clt]I dont think you are going to win this one Rizzler, im even more disappointed really because this decision will directly affect you in the next few years.

All i'll say guys is please keep this debate civilised. No personal insulting, thats not what this area is about. Thanks[/clt]

 

[DeletedUser]

I think Rizzler has a point about putting yourself in the shoes of the person cutting, whatever you cut is ging to have some sort of adverse effect. It'll also cause unpopularity.

Just so happens they decided universities are in need of more funding from students and they changed the system a bit in an attmept to make it fairer with the paying back. We can't tell for sure how its going to work but at leats it might cut down on demand

 

[DeletedUser]

I think Rizzler has a point about putting yourself in the shoes of the person cutting, whatever you cut is ging to have some sort of adverse effect. It'll also cause unpopularity.

Just so happens they decided universities are in need of more funding from students and they changed the system a bit in an attmept to make it fairer with the paying back. We can't tell for sure how its going to work but at leats it might cut down on demand

[clt]Couldnt disagree more... i'd like to know how many hours of planning has gone into the proposal, ministers have a lot of sectors to cut and have (rightly) been focusing on the big one which is the military cuts.. however, what alternatives did the government suggest to raising tuition fees? none. just slap a pricetag on it and move on. The system needs a shake up to save money, raising costs like this is just carpet bombing the problem.[/clt]

 

[DeletedUser]

Sorry, but ya know I was discussing this before you came in, so technically YOU came in for your small bit to say.

You begin paying back Tuition fees once you are earning £21,000 or more. The Minimum wage for over 21's is £12,334.40 (yearly salary). If I was unemployed then I would consider myself in a worse off position than having to pay back Student loans.

A few scenarios:

1. You take a mickey mouse course. You are unable to get a job, get a job working in retail convincing yourself it will only be temporary. Finally you progress up the ladder but unfortunately it's not in your degree respective. You finally earn £21,000 and then you have to start paying back EVEN MORE of a fee for a degree you have had no use for.

2. You take a good degree, you get a good job. You're earning ~22k once you leave University, you have to begin paying back student loans straight away. This leaves you with less disposable income. The Property market becomes even harder to get into, considering it's hard enough already. Eventually get a house and a pay rise. Oh wait, now that you're paying a mortgage, you've still got student loans to pay off. Forever sitting on your back until the last penny is paid.

3. You take a good degree, you don't manage to get a good job. See Scenario 1. Even more fees to pay off.

Do any of those Scenarios look good to you? They certainly don't to me. How could anybody think that making the younger generation pay more (when they're statistically worse off) be a good idea? Why aren't taxes being put up on the bankers? No, it makes sense to charge the future doctors etc.. now, just to get a head start.

It's making the younger generation pay for the mistakes of the old, just like Global warming.

Why does every single one of your scenario's involve having the worst possible situation take place? People in previous economic recessions have managed to pay back their student loans, also you forget get to pay back their student loans once they get a decent job.

The Government or your university does not want to bankrupt students with the burden of debt, so their not going to force students to pay massive re-payments instead they'll take a fee the student can afford and work from that, also the current interest rates favour people taking sensible mortgages although you should probably rent for a few years.

 

[DeletedUser]

Simple.

Achieve loan. Go to University. Gain knowledge.

Do not gain 25k+ job. do not have to pay back loan.

???

Profit.

 

[DeletedUser]

Simple.

Achieve loan. Go to University. Gain knowledge.

Do not gain 25k+ job. do not have to pay back loan.

???

Profit.

[clt]That would mean being in a job under £25,000 for 30 years, the majority of your working life. Isn't the whole point of getting a degree so that you can use it to get a well paid job?[/clt]

The Government or your university does not want to bankrupt students with the burden of debt, so their not going to force students to pay massive re-payments instead they'll take a fee the student can afford and work from that, also the current interest rates favour people taking sensible mortgages although you should probably rent for a few years.

[clt]So why are the interest rates on student loans also rising? Whats the justification on that? And also, the amount taken from your salary to repay student loans isn't worked out on 'what you can afford' they don't take your financial situation into consideration, all they do is take a percentage of your salary each month, which to be honest is pretty substantial. I pay back in the region of £280 a month, luckily only for the next 4-5 years.. after these changes, students will be making these repayments for a long time.[/clt]

 

[DeletedUser]

Why does every single one of your scenario's involve having the worst possible situation take place? People in previous economic recessions have managed to pay back their student loans, also you forget get to pay back their student loans once they get a decent job.

The Government or your university does not want to bankrupt students with the burden of debt, so their not going to force students to pay massive re-payments instead they'll take a fee the student can afford and work from that, also the current interest rates favour people taking sensible mortgages although you should probably rent for a few years.

Because Life is a (female dog) that is why all of my scenarios include the worst possible situation. Trying to get a job in England for something as meaningless as working in a supermarket is tough.

Previous economic recessions have NEVER been as bad as this since the great depression.

I don't see why you are trying to justify this at all. Whether people will manage to pay it back or not it is an injustice to be making this generation pay for the mistakes of the last. I do not trust the government at all, far too much have they gone back on promises and completely disregarded common sense.

It's not about being able to pay the money back, it's that it's another 10k+ of salary to pay off the student loan. You realise some people will have to work 6 months of their life extra just to pay back the student loan money on top of what they would have a few years ago.

 

[DeletedUser]

[clt]That would mean being in a job under £25,000 for 30 years, the majority of your working life. Isn't the whole point of getting a degree so that you can use it to get a well paid job?[/clt]

It would depends on the type of person you're.

 

[DeletedUser]

It would depends on the type of person you're.

Yes, maybe if you're ill-educated.

There would absolutely no point of doing what you have suggested because, you could be so much better off by leaving school at 16 and working up the ranks at any business.
Not only will you be earning more than 40k in 20 years time (assuming you do have the intellect, determination to do that and you were intelligent enough to go to university). Later on, one can go to any college and do any course (and still make profit), rather than going to university and making <25k per year.

So no, that idea is not 'profit'. :icon_neutral:

 

[DeletedUser]

A university degree is both expensive and valuable. Since the greatest beneficiary of the value is the graduate, the graduate should burden the greatest part of the expense. Hospital porters and street-cleaners should not pay for a lawyer's education.

As long as there is a system to ensure that graduates do not have to pay more than they can afford (such as a loan agreement where all repayments are deferred unless the the borrower is earning >£20k pa), I think it is entirely reasonable that they pay for their degree.

[clt]That would mean being in a job under £25,000 for 30 years, the majority of your working life. Isn't the whole point of getting a degree so that you can use it to get a well paid job?[/clt]

No, it isn't. But if that was the case, then to hell with the loans - the students should pay the full amount upfront.