Remembering the dead?

DeletedUser

Guest
Whilst watching MOTD tongiht, i noticed on most of the managers and presenters suits, the poppy's used to remember those who died in WWI.

This got me thinking rather a lot really. It's something that goes by every year near november, we "Remember" those that are no longer with us, after dying for their country.

The point i want to make though, is, Is this really necessary?

The wars occured long ago, before many peoples Grandparents where born, and, do we really need to remember every year any longer?

Personally, as you may have guessed, i think not. The "Great War" is a time, i feel, we should not remember. Lots of poor decisions were made, and times were very different, Yet, we get forced into remembering.

Ok, they have died for their country, which, i'm not too for (I have a thing against... certain wars.) but, i appreciate. However, i just still don't understand how important it is to remember them. Why not remember those civilians on both sides instead, they did nothing wrong - wrong place, wrong time is their worst crime. No, we remember the brutal soldiers who killed hundred of thousands.

They were not Heroes, And should not be remembered as such. I think, we should let sleeping dogs lie, and get over it. The UK as a nation, is very over-nostalgic, and i think this is one of the things that should be forgotten first.

Feel free to discuss/give your own opinions.

YGP.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
This is a good point. Is it worth it?

Yes.

If these soldiers didn't fight and defend our country, then we'd probably be sitting here playing the german version of TW. Our whole world would be different. Half of Europe would be German-ruled. Think of every little detail that would be changed. This country could have been one of slaves, or labourers.

Would you have liked to live in that world? I'm guessing you'd say no. Well, you don't have to because our soldiers prevented it.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'd just like to say that the poppy appeal isn't only for veterans of world war 1 and 2, it's for every soldier who's ever fought for Britain.

It also raises thousands of pounds which goes towards treating ex-soldiers who have suffered injuries e.g loss of legs or even helping soldiers overcome mental issues. Those are often faced by ex-soldiers when they return home from war. I think it's worth having one day a year to honour and show our respect to those who have fought for our nation and its inhabitants.

James

Edit: Actually Megamitch there were plans found recently which suggested that England was willing to not declare war on Germany and help the rest of Europe as long as Germany wouldn't invade. So we would have been safe, cowards but safe nonetheless
 
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DeletedUser

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Doopyer said:
Edit: Actually Megamitch there were plans found recently which suggested that England was willing to not declare war on Germany and help the rest of Europe as long as Germany wouldn't invade. So we would have been safe, cowards but safe nonetheless
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Really? I never knew that....
 

DeletedUser

Guest
MegaMitch7SW said:
If these soldiers didn't fight and defend our country, then we'd probably be sitting here playing the german version of TW. Our whole world would be different. Half of Europe would be German-ruled. Think of every little detail that would be changed. This country could have been one of slaves, or labourers.

Would you have liked to live in that world? I'm guessing you'd say no. Well, you don't have to because our soldiers prevented it.
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To be totally honest German victory in WW1 wouldn't have changed much. WW2 was a war of ideologies, but applying the same template to the fighting done in WW1 is a very big mistake.

There were no clearly defined "good" and "bad" in WW1 and most probably the peace treaties would have looked very similar had Germany won (obviously tables turned). British hesitation to enter stems exactly from that, and only diplomatic relations (as well as a fear of 1 country having more ports then the British Empire - giving Germany control of the English Channel - after the conquer of Belgium) made Britain side with French.

This obviously is only speculations, but looking at the fact that Germany has not actually entered WW1 to conquer is a substantial argument. WW1 in its nature was a war that there have been dozens of ever since medieval ages, and despite the fact that The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Prussia and Austria have won, I dare say, the majority of them, we are not speaking German. It's only the technological advancement of the age that made this war cause so many casualties to both sides.

Obviously, had Hitler won WW2, the picture would be VERY different.
 

DeletedUser1189

Guest
Its important that we remember the sacrafices made by those who stood against people who would try and take away our liberty and freedom. Rememberance day gives us a chance to all reflect on the sacrafices made by millions of people so that we can be here today and live how we are. Some might argue that it brings up the past and creates devides between people with the attitude of you were on this side and I was on that side, we won and you lost, we were right and you were wrong. I like to believe that rememberance day is for everyone, to remember that the sacrafices of the many were due to the decisions of a few, and we should never forgot that, else we be faced with the same situation again.
 

DeletedUser2765

Guest
[ke]I disagree with the OP about making it so we forget the past. If you forget the past, then how can you hope to learn from the lessons of the past?[/ke]
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Kriegselend said:
[ke]I disagree with the OP about making it so we forget the past. If you forget the past, then how can you hope to learn from the lessons of the past?[/ke]
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I like this point. Us, as humans, seem to be unable to learn from the past, as wars always happen again and again.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
MegaMitch7SW said:
I like this point. Us, as humans, seem to be unable to learn from the past, as wars always happen again and again.
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It's not that we don't learn from the past it's because the human race is fickle and greedy. We can't help ourselves from taking what we don't have. That's why most of the early wars were over land or money.
 

DeletedUser2765

Guest
[ke]Thats what almost all wars are over, land, money, resources, etc.. But one thing is for sure though, wars will continue to exist until there is 1 government for the entire planet.[/ke]
 

DeletedUser1189

Guest
One goverment for the entire planet, now there is an idea, a new thread I feel though so we dont disgress from ops point.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Ok, it's friday, and i'm in a serious mood, so, i want to further expand my point a bit.

As mentioned above, (By Megamitch i beleive), we are unable to learn from the past. However, I also feel that we nostalgize, and hold onto the past, too much so. We are getting to the point, where we are trying to make history stay with us forever, but i feel that this is more of a burden.

History, is about the past. We know shady facts and details, that, from each generation become increasingly more innacurate.

Wars were faught to protect our honour, to rid the world of indecencies, to become Hero's, No? Yet, looking at the facts, you see that none of them really became hero's. They were doing a job, that most of them were told ordered to do. Propaganda was the main reason many signed up, as to not look like a (For use of a lighter word) chicken.

Every year, we are reminded however of the "Great" deed they did in fighting for our country. Me, personally, just doesn't appreciate it.

I just don't understand why every year we put so much into remembering those that have died in wars.

It was the past, times were different, I strongly doubt we will be fighting the Nazi's again.

Now, i can quite easily mirror that with recent wars. The Iraqi war was one against a militant leader, who, we took down. Hardly anyone died on our side. Yet, we killed thousands of civillians. Hero's? I think not. The war was needed - Yes. How it was faught however, should have been different.

I just don't see these people as heros, and as such, don't understand why they are held in such high regard.

YGP.

Ps -
Kriegy said:
[ke]Thats what almost all wars are over, land, money, resources, etc.. But one thing is for sure though, wars will continue to exist until there is 1 government for the entire planet.[/ke]
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That reminded me a lot of the way TW is played...
 

DeletedUser1189

Guest
You make a very valid point, especially about the shady past. Not much before the world wars and something which is just slipping into the past and not discussed, I dont even think I did it in history was the Boer Wars. About 40 years before the first world war I think. Now that was a shady past. Little know fact that before even the axis of ww2 had concentration camps, we developed the concept during the Boer wars. Dark indeed. So it begs the question, why dont we remeber it. I guess, because we dont want too, its a little bit too murky to be celebrated as a victory. From this stand point I can see that your argument holds great merit.

Still, something within me tells me not to forget the destruction that was waged across an entire planet. So much lost and nothing gained in the end. If we as a people forget this, then I fear we risk just starting it all over again. Well probably not, with the weapons nations have at there disposal now we could waste the entire planet a million times over so it would never be habitable for thousands of years and the human race just one of many distance memories this planet has witnessed though the eons.

Remembering what we are capable of as so called 'enlightened' creatures of this planet I hope makes nations not want to repeat the mistakes this time around. Given another few hundred years the world wars will be but a distant memory, something only people studying this era of time will probably care about or have indepth knowledge of. That is provided we learnt. We could very well of not learned and wiped each other out over another petty squabble.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Yeah, i heard about the concentration camps on QI a bit ago, Quite interesting stuff indeed.

I do agree that some things need to be remembered in order to acknowledge the past, but i just don't think it needs to be done to such an extent if you know what i'm saying.

The last paragraph did get me thinking a bit though, we are the highest form of intelligence on this planet, should give us huge responsibilty, and, as such, do need to learn from our mistakes, that is, provided we make them.

You may have convinced me a bit about remembering wars... but not so much about remembering those who have died... I kinda feel that those soldiers were (In my opinion) Irrelevent to the point being made about the war, just... workers or handymen i guess.

In summary, i feel we should remember the wars, not the individuals, which, is something i will try to do in the future.
 

DeletedUser1189

Guest
I guess you will have you way soon, as im pretty sure, once the next generation of us comes about, there wont be any 'veterans' left to do the flag waving. I know the Uk goverment has over the past five to ten years really began scaling down rememberance day. As that generation slowly disappears lost to time, the general feeling is becoming less too ship them all over to the beach fronts of the d-day landings where they can stand triumpent.

Something which I will never forget though, a long time ago I guess, as I was only about 13-14 was a school trip to france we went on. We had all gone over to see the bayeux tapestry. Was mixing french studies, with history and what not. I guess, another monument to wars won a long long time ago. But, for some unknown reason one day the lead teacher bussed us all off to the mass graveyards littering the french coast lines of those fallen in D-day landings. At the time we figured he was looking for someone as in the center of them all is a large book with the names off all those fallen. I remeber looking at one. To me at the time it was just pages and pages of names and ranks, and held very little meaning. I known this might sound daft but I was rather immature as a kid and I think me and my mate were running around with hollowed out loafs of bread on our hands hitting each other. Much to the disgust and upset of the teachers.

Still, the memory of standing in those graveyards is with me today though. Just rows and rows of crosses, from people who had died, there names listed in a book. It gives the day they died as well if memory serves me. As I got older and with the memory of just standing in one of those graveyards, of thousands if not more little crosses sticking out the ground, of people who all died within a space of a few days is a sobering thought. One which will never leave me now im older and understand through maturity just the magnitude of peronsal loss. All them people will of had friends and family, love ones, childern. Generations of people lost in but the blink of an eye. On reflection thinking about standing in those graveyards, I remember those people for all they sacraficed so that I could stand there and call myself free.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
YallGotPwned said:
Yeah, i heard about the concentration camps on QI a bit ago, Quite interesting stuff indeed.

I do agree that some things need to be remembered in order to acknowledge the past, but i just don't think it needs to be done to such an extent if you know what i'm saying.

The last paragraph did get me thinking a bit though, we are the highest form of intelligence on this planet, should give us huge responsibilty, and, as such, do need to learn from our mistakes, that is, provided we make them.

You may have convinced me a bit about remembering wars... but not so much about remembering those who have died... I kinda feel that those soldiers were (In my opinion) Irrelevent to the point being made about the war, just... workers or handymen i guess.

In summary, i feel we should remember the wars, not the individuals, which, is something i will try to do in the future.
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Righty as a budding Historian you've made me a tad angry lol

We need to learn from our mistakes not necessarily so we can see what not to do e.g do you truly believe if there's another Hitler out there he cares about learning about the holocaust and it "effects" him, No. What we can learn from History is what we can do to combat these things and how to deal with them. For example if we saw another miniature version of Hitler rallying a broken country we'd step in earlier to ensure a world war never happened again. It's these insights which will help us to make judgements in the future.

The next bit made me most mad =). Do you think those soldiers wanted to be there? They clearly didn't, so what if none signed up... became objectors to the war and refused to fight? There would have been millions of innocent people killed whilst we stood around and did nothing. Just watched. Those men and some women put there lives on the line to help and save civilians in enemy territory. And despite what you may believe us Brits aren't really very ruthless, in fact we're pretty courteous. We willingly harmed very few civilians. The same can't be said for the russians who plundered Berlin and raped the women. Or during the War in Vietnam where the American government decided it would be best to spray the fields and jungles with Agent Orange which wiped out any greenery or anything, destroying crops and livelihoods.

Sure we're not angels and we've made mistakes which have caused civilians harm but the civilians always come first. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1220230/Pilots-skill-saves-innocent-Afghan-villagers-air-strike.html
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Wars, even those like WW2 will be forgotten. All memories start to fade when last of the people who lived through it die. WW2 will not be anything special and sooner or later will be forgotten by all, just we forgot about huge slaughters in Roman, greek or any other times.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
The Revenant said:
Wars, even those like WW2 will be forgotten. All memories start to fade when last of the people who lived through it die. WW2 will not be anything special and sooner or later will be forgotten by all, just we forgot about huge slaughters in Roman, greek or any other times.
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Yeah but the difference with the world wars are that they were participated with by many countries. They are the biggest wars with the most participants so more people have a reason to remember them. I agree if there's another larger world war, 1 and 2 will be forgotten. But not until that time
 
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