The Burka Ban

[DeletedUser]

So I'm sure most of you have heard of the ban in France.. I want to see everyone's opinions on this.
If you haven't:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10611398
And:Here you are
The ban has actually been proved popular among many countries, the Swiss plan to ban the burka too.

Spoiler: Other news

Spain is to debate banning the burka this week. The ruling Socialist party has indicated it will support the the opposition popular party, which says the garments are degrading to women.

The lower houses of parliament in France and Belgium have approved a ban on face-covering veils, but their upper chambers have to ratify the law.

The Netherlands may yet decide on a ban, while Switzerland has outlawed minarets, from where Muslim are called to prayer.

My mixed opinions:
- I think that everybody should be subject to freedom until it starts to cause harm to another being. The burka doesn't harm anybody in the physical sense so it is justified to wear it.
- The burka is part of a religion that everybody has the right to follow if they want, denying people to wear it is denying their religion as well as multiculturalism.
- Imposing laws and limits are always a sign of insecurity. Sarcozy is clearly afraid of losing on the ever closing election day and so he plays the racial card to gain support.
- The law is intolerant and will not stop reactionary Muslims in any way. This will in fact most probably have the reverse effect as extremists will take action against the country (they already have captured and held 2 people on ransom)

- However, many argue that the burka hinders social interaction and makes people feel uneasy when approaching such people.
- Some women that wear it may be subject to domestic abuse from husband's that force them to wear it, which shouldn't be the case.
- Degrading other women (especially Muslim women) that do not wear it as if they are not as good as those that do. Or that they are superior. I have no idea how common this is, so cannot really comment, but thought that may be a possibility or area of concern.
- It could provide cover for criminals and possibly terrorists who have been known to adopt the burka as a convenient disguise, which is a sensible reason IMO.

Spoiler: the burka

- In environments such as teaching it is very unpractical to have someone in a burka teach you. How can you trust someone that deliberately hides their face from you?


I'm not sure, but I believe that it should not be banned overall. What do you think?

 

[DeletedUser]

(quoting underwater)

- I think that everybody should be subject to freedom until it starts to cause to another being. The burka doesn't harm anybody in the physical sense so it is justified to wear it.
I agree with this, and I think it is the most important point you raise.

- The burka is part of a religion that everybody has the right to follow if they want, denying people to wear it is denying their religion as well as multiculturalism.
I don't agree. Just because someone claims something is part of their religion does not mean it should be tolerated if it is harmful to others in society.

- Imposing laws and limits are always a sign of insecurity. Sarcozy is clearly afraid of losing on the ever closing election day and so he plays the racial card to gain support.
I agree. It is pretty disgusting, but that's democracy for you.

- The law is intolerant and will not stop reactionary Muslims in any way. This will in fact most probably have the reverse effect as extremists will take action against the country
I agree.

- However, many argue that the burka hinders social interaction and makes people feel uneasy when approaching such people.
It probably does. As (sadly) does the hooded-sweatshirt. Not a reason to ban either.

- Some women that wear it may be subject to domestic abuse from husband's that force them to wear it, which shouldn't be the case.
Probably, in some cases. But the issue there is domestic abuse, not the garment.

- Degrading other women (especially Muslim women) that do not wear it as if they are not as good as those that do. Or that they are superior. I have no idea how common this is, so cannot really comment, but thought that may be a possibility or area of concern.
By "degrading" you mean stigmatising? Perhaps. But I expect social stigma in most European communities lies more heavily on the wearers than the non-wearers. Besides, it is an attitude problem rather than a clothing problem. You might as well ban not wearing the veil.

- It could provide cover for criminals and possibly terrorists who have been known to adopt the burka as a convenient disguise, which is a sensible reason IMO.
Yes. So you do not make any special exceptions, eg. you can't go into a bank with one on etc. I think those who choose to wear need to accept that it will cause inconveniences.

- In environments such as teaching it is very unpractical to have someone in a burka teach you.
Yes, and it may be inappropriate for burkah wearers to carry out certain jobs.

How can you trust someone that deliberately hides their face from you?
It would take much longer to get to know them, but I am sure it is possible to trust someone who deliberately hides their face from you.

I'm not sure, but I believe that it should not be banned overall. What do you think?
Halloween in France will be really dull.

 

[DeletedUser]

Imposing laws and limits are always a sign of insecurity. Sarcozy is clearly afraid of losing on the ever closing election day and so he plays the racial card to gain support.

Playing a racial card??
Thats absolute rubbish, theres an estimated 5 million muslims who live in France these days (Wiki). Granted not all the muslim woman wear a Burka, but there is no way that he can play a 'racial card' to gain support. Ludicrous statement.

 

[DeletedUser]

- I think that everybody should be subject to freedom until it starts to cause to another being. The burka doesn't harm anybody in the physical sense so it is justified to wear it.

I'd support a ban for the Burqa.

Firstly I don't believe that wearing the Burqa is a free choice. Women are wearing the burqa because of pressure from a closed community forcing them to. When it's couched in simple terms people talk about "abusive relationships" like it's a husband forcing his wife to wear it. As repugnant as that is, it's not the whole problem. The reason why in Afghanistan the burqa was so prevelant was because of the Taliban regime. Essentially women are wearing it out of perssure from external bodies. There is no responsible, rational way that the choice to wear the burqa can be made in socities like this, because there's too much pressure to conform, and not doing so results in ostricisation. It almost doesn't matter that the group applying this pressure is generally radical islamist sects (note islamist, not islamic) because it's a choice made not on the basis of whether a woman wants to wear a burqa, but based on what will happen if she doesn't.

We can draw an analogy here quite easily to smoking. The government allows people to choose to smoke, even though it's powerfully negative, because they can make the choice on an informed, rational basis. The government, by banning adverts for cigarettes and by making sure everyone knows that smoking = death let people choose rationally.

Unfortunaly the government can't remove the stigma from the burqa that certain communities apply to it. The government is unable to let women make the choice freely, so the sensible answer is to sto them having to make the choice.

But hold on a second. You're probably eagerly thinking "Aha, but why is it better for the government to force a choice on you, rather than a community to force a choice on you!" The answer is simple. The governments choice has less negative effects.

So yes we look evil as a country. Maybe for those who wear it out of religious motivation, the negative side of this ban is going to hell. However they have a simple answer, they don't have to live in England. The UK government basis it's policy on how to protect society, and those who choose to live within it. Those who feel it's laws hurt them, are perfectly free to leave. Look at all the filthy rich greedy bankers who take British education, University places, make loads of money then go and live in a tax haven to avoid giving back to the poor. We don't cater for them, because we think that providing a welfare state is more important that their views about how they're entitled to obscene wealth. While religous people haven't done anything wrong, protecting British society is more important than protecting their beliefs, and so if they believe their moral code is contradictory with the agenda of the British government, they can freely choose to leave, and indeed they might feel more at home in an Islamic nation, just as many Jewish people choose to migrate to Israel for a government that more closely follows their beliefs.

So what is this societal harm that comes from the burqa? Essentially it is segregation. The burqa is a symbol that integration doesn't work. It is a group within British society that holds itself apart, independant. The dangers of segregation are fairly obvious. If we look at areas like Bradford, where voluntary ghetto-isation (various groups split off into areas in Bradford) has led to massive segregation both on racial and financial levels, has caused concentration of both poverty and a fractured society has made it the second highest city for crime in the whole of England and Wales.

There is a social harm from segregation.

The burqa is a symbol of segregation.

While limiting freedoms is abhorrent, the social damage from not doing so in this instance recquires action from the government.

In an ideal society, this ban would never even be considered, unfortunatly we do not live in an idea society.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think if they really want to wear it out and about then thats fine. I don't like the idea of it, but if its that important to them then I am not going to stop them.

However, I think there are many circumstances in which it should be banned. Those doing jobs with public interaction (shopworkers, teachers etc) should not be allowed to wear it as its unnerving for many and commonly used body language is unreadable.

There are probably other situations I'd also be against it in, but can't be bothered to think of them all right now.

Anyway, I'd hope with the practise will die out as time goes on. There's a lot less extreme religion around today, young people are seeing some ideas as outdated and aren't following strict religious guidelines.