Mirror Mirror on the wall what is the greatest def build of them all?!

[DeletedUser]

definitely not the best but its my personal favourite.

 

[DeletedUser282]

Sigh. Ok.

They wouldn't. I intimated this in the original thread. This is not supposed to mirror a real situation Gargareth. Only a true simpleton would think it was.

Ok if this is just intended a basically a silly game almost completely disconnected from anything you ever do in tribal wars (it quite clearly isn't) then that would be fine I suppose but in your responses to people playing it like a silly game have been criticising people for building what you consider silly things based on the real game. (My build is obviously silly- you simply think that the archer/hc/cat one is silly because you don't understand how the battle system works properly)

Really? Build and rebuild time are normally seen as important in most builds. However, I do humbly beseech your forgiveness in not running the criteria by your first. How I will live with the shame is something am unlikely to get over.

They really aren't that important (rebuild time in a 1D vs 1nuke situation is especially unimportant) in lots (indeed most cases) Lategame its going to be especially rarely important as almost all the time if losses are spread reasonably build time and rebuild time don't matter very much. Also the fact that the first option is general D (for some reason [it really really makes no sense]) acts against the build time/rebuild time thing as obviously the fastest building reasonably well balance (just sp/hc fastest build) is going to lose because spear have bad general D. If you stack the general D your stuff is much more likely to just all die so rebuild time is worse.

3: Maybe start a chat about decent builds so I wouldn't have to figure one for myself (cos am stupid but then I think you know this)

Your build is wonderful Gargareth not well stupid in any form or shape at all.

As I said before this quite clearly wasn't just a silly irrelevant game. If you wanted this goal even slightly then it would have been far better to choose less ridiculous measures to judge D builds on.

Also yes for tribalwars my build is ridiculous. It does a pretty good job given your ridiculous measures though.

No one would spot this build and use MA heavy nukes against you? That would be, well stupid :icon_eek:

Yeah this isn't actually a reasonable concern. (Also it obviously again shows that this isn't just a silly game- you were considering solutions for how good they would be in tribalwars which again suggests that the measures you picked were intended to be good and you just did a horrible job of it) If you sim the archer/hc/cats thing (comes out as 5546 archers, 2072 hc, 362 cats) against nukes (starting on like 6k axe 3375lc 213 rams) and substitute axe or lc for MA. You find that substituting lc for ma is just wrong and substituting axe for ma is only a tiny benefit (if you build 100ma instead of 500 axe you kill 2 more archers and 1 more hc or something like that and if you keep substituting more the benefit goes away)

archer/hc/cat is actually a pretty good bet given your conditions.

It loses in all 3 categories to a sword/hc/cat/noble build that would have very slightly more general D with a better build time for nukes that have ~8k axe or less though as a sufficient percentage of the units die such that the silly build with nobles would actually entirely build itself again faster than the archer/hc build would rebuild it's losses. (Gotta know that your categories are pretty terrible when a build that is including nobles in a D build is actually fairly good given the categories.)

 

[DeletedUser10520]

(My build is obviously silly- you simply think that the archer/hc/cat one is silly because you don't understand how the battle system works properly)

Yes really Garg. Lets chat this one through shall we. First you clearly know my own builds for this thread or if not lets just assume you do and say that no one but you knows anything about anything.

then Crazyeyes says this..

I'm gonna go with archer/hc/cats built continously. Gives high gen d, not appalling build time, and has cav d to fight off your nuke and Im hoping you dont use too many ma.

My god and (amazingly agreeing with him though slightly bemused he never posted a build). But then than would be risking not being seen as cool as you

I say this

No one would spot this build and use MA heavy nukes against you?

[/SPOILER]

So we both understand his build. Yes? This may amaze you Garg but the thread was simply to get folks posting and to think about their build.

I did hope (stupid me) that folks like you (and I did think about you) would post a reasonable and educated response to the thread.

The rest of your post flits between things you have previously ridiculed to things you now use to back up arguments that were never made.

It would have been very easy for you to do a Muldeh and post up the uber flicky hair answer. Sadly you choose to portray yourself, yet again, as a cerebral idiot only interested in making cheap points.

You make so many assumptions about so many things is laughable. Had you made just one or two about what this thread was for you could have come across (and still belittled me!) as an informative poster happy to help the community.

Instead you just come across as a champion pancake mover....

 

[DeletedUser6695]

Apologies...Linking math nerds to this thread was evidently not a good idea

 

[DeletedUser10520]

Apologies...Linking math nerds to this thread was evidently not a good idea

No CF this was my bad. I should never have posted a thread wanting any type of nuke build without explaining the parameters in minute detail. Though this would have just created even more issues/hair splitting/created opportunities for more epeen buffing

Actually I should do what everyone else has realised which is simply not to post at all.....

 

[DeletedUser282]

Ugh. This really is a waste of my time at this point. The majority of those last two (really thats overly specific, a more general conclusion would be reasonable.) posts said very very little that made any kind of sense.

No one would spot this build and use MA heavy nukes against you?

From that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you think that constantly building archers and hc and cats would lead to a terrible build that MA would kill. This is not the case, hence me saying you don't understand the battle system. (Really that isn't a massive leap given literally everything you've posted in this thread.)

The parameters you gave are completely stupid for any determination of something that would actually be applicable to the actual game. I gave a silly (with respect to things applicable to the game) answer and then this was immediately criticized as being stupid (as near as I can tell anyway, as previously stated your posts in this thread lack any kind of sense so attempting to understand what you are trying to say is reasonably difficult.)

The notion that this kind of response is somehow killing the forums is insane since this is the only thread I've posted in on .co.uk in quite a long time. Though I do agree that you not posting at all would certainly be a good thing for everyone.

 

[DeletedUser9598]

I only build archers on non archer worlds so nurrr i win

 

[DeletedUser11866]

Why are you guys arguing lol ...

 

[DeletedUser10520]

From that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you think that constantly building archers and hc and cats would lead to a terrible build that MA would kill. This is not the case, hence me saying you don't understand the battle system. (Really that isn't a massive leap given literally everything you've posted in this thread.)

really? I mentioned a MA heavy nuke. Again you are making a lot of assumptions. You then make up your own nuke to make an argument no one else had made to prove a point no one was disputing. Hell even Crazyeyes says the same.

But this is just stupid. Garg throughout this whole thread you have been your typically puerile self. Everyone is an idiot bar yourself. Should you ever wish to debate an archer world build in any sort of maturity then let this community know but I doubt this time will ever occur.

The sad thing is you have never changed in all the posts you make. Everyone is beneath your contempt. No one can express an opinion (or even ask for one) without ridicule. You even have to construct a straw man argument to build some illusion of a counter argument.

Read the first post again. Was it really so hard to see what was needed? For someone who is supposed to be bright? If you have nothing positive to say then say nothing at all.

 

[DeletedUser]

My god and (amazingly agreeing with him though slightly bemused he never posted a build). But then than would be risking not being seen as cool as you

I was linked the thread whilst on my phone, I was bored figured I'd give it some degree of thought, but playing to find optimal build times would have been a pain. Hence I posted my suggestion with words instead of numbers!

Anyway as for the problem at hand obvious build is sw/hc (maybe cat). That is the best mix of gen D and speed. Then I considered that has really low cav D, so switched to archers which I thought seemed like it might be a good idea given best def unit in each building building constantly. Yes it's less gen D but it's more cav D. Archer D isn't usually too important.

Anyway this is my build:

Vs

Muldie's (the benchmark for gen d/speed IMO)

So 40:18:31 faster, but 89200 general D lower.

I'm weaker against infantry, stronger against cavalry, and weaker against archers. Most nukes are cavalry heavy, hence why I did this trade off.

Let's consider strength per farm space:

Infantry (Axe) - 40/1 =40
Cavalry (LC) - 130/4 = 32.5
Archer(MA) - 120/5 =24

The battle system works on subdividing into 3 battles, where the percentage of the infantry/cavalry/archer attack reflects what percentage of the defence fights that battle.

I'm going to ignore walls, because they make any calculations made by hand harder but at the same time they effect every battle in the same way -- assuming the same amount of rams. They might drop the wall more after the battle, but we are considering one battle so that doesn't matter.

The amount of farm space vs my def build that would need to be invested in a nuke that was pure of what ever kind (axe, lc, ma). Interesting my nuke is actually weaker vs an all axe nuke than an all ma nuke. But is still weakest against cavalry significantly. So I'm strongest against MA, cos MA are that bad.

Less so than muldie's which would look like:

Considering an "average" nuke is very low in MA, then highest in LC and highish in Axe. The reason mine might win in rebuild time becomes clear.

I'm weakest against LC, using LC against my D is best.

Optimizing best nuke vs defence is trivial, and it then paints a pictures against nukes made up of different things which are a much more complicated picture.

I brute forced the best uses of 2000 attacking population (the relative strength would be the same for whatever population, although the numbers in terms of % lost would not change in a linear fashion).

The top 200 results (all I scan read) vs my D were essentially just (after 2000 population lc), taking population from LC and adding it to axes, then lc. Then take more population, which is as expected. It says axes are better use than MA essentially vs me on a population basis. So yes, my D is solid enough against MA because MA suck so bad.

Losses averaged 3.1267% (over all combinations).
Muldeh's averaged 3.5323% (over all combinations).

Obviously it depends on nuke composition, but yeah I'm happy with my choice given the way of ranking

really? I mentioned a MA heavy nuke. Again you are making a lot of assumptions. You then make up your own nuke to make an argument no one else had made to prove a point no one was disputing. Hell even Crazyeyes says the same.

I'd not calculated anything then was making an assumption -- I was very wrong, see above for more details

Apologies...Linking math nerds to this thread was evidently not a good idea

No the reason I talk to you is so that you link me to mildly interesting UK threads. So many thanks. I don't think the measurements for the builds are a great idea, but I have decided since my first post that I do consider the optimization of speed time/gen defence/strength against a nuke an interesting test of my understanding of the battle system. Although I do think it's a stupid measurement for a real D build.

 

[DeletedUser]

No CF this was my bad. I should never have posted a thread wanting any type of nuke build without explaining the parameters in minute detail. Though this would have just created even more issues/hair splitting/created opportunities for more epeen buffing

Here's an idea, how about we have a discussion over what the parameters should be first, and invite Garg to contribute. Then once we've come to an agreement we can then work out which D build fits those parameters the best.

/flicks hair

 

[DeletedUser]

I think you all need to get out more :-D

Just kidding, fair play to anyone who has put the time and effort into doing this, especially KrAzY eYeZ kIlLa041.

It was a nice idea for a thread I Blame Your Mother, just a shame it was spoilt with nit picking.

 

[DeletedUser10520]

Here's an idea, how about we have a discussion over what the parameters should be first, and invite Garg to contribute. Then once we've come to an agreement we can then work out which D build fits those parameters the best.

/flicks hair

That suits me. Will assess the published builds as promised but would be great to get a definitive answer (if such a thing is possible) on what would be the best archer world def build.

I would suggest the parameters but (attempts to flick hair and fails) I think will leave it to you guys...

 

[DeletedUser13441]

Wow this thread!!!

It was a good idea, +1

But the hate, oh my days the hate. Whys everyone so mad???

They should check your age and mental health before allowing people to post in a grown up forum.

Respecting others posts no matter if they are right or wrong is simple, not everyone has to see things the way you do.

#grownupsftw!!!!

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't hate anyone. Nit picking is what you should expect if you want help with a build and you post your own thoughts on the matter.

 

[DeletedUser]

I still want to know what this mystery nuke was. I don't come and post on UK just for nothing you know, this thread was clearly privileged.

 

[DeletedUser13240]

This might be intentional (did Fidel help you) in which case never mind!

What has this got to do with me? I have never told acki my def builds, unless he's my younger brother (who I gave my w10 account on his 10th birthday) in disguise which he probably is because he acts the same when he's proven wrong :icon_eek:.

you blaming my mother or fidel?

Blame me please. It's not like I have enough hate mail :lol: is it?


@IBYM: This is my favourite troop build - Great on church worlds like casual where people rarely use MA and if they do it's with no LC :icon_rolleyes::

5000 Spears
5000 Swords
5000 Archers
1000 Heavy Cav

The rest I use on market building, or scouts in which case you can have about 500 with 24000 population I think. I'm not a maths geeks so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Erich.