Scottish Referendum - Yes or No?

DeletedUser3371

Guest
Why on earth should anybody else other than a Scottish person have a vote on their choice to be an independent state or not.

It is the United Kingdom, not a single country and never has been and never will be.

By the same token in your argument every European person should get to vote on whether or not GB should remain part of Europe!

Do you agree with that point on the same side of the coin?

It is currently a kingdom but perhaps they will take their independence a step further ...


Meech for Preisdent!​
 

DeletedUser5582

Guest
PeterDGreat1 said:
Why on earth should anybody else other than a Scottish person have a vote on their choice to be an independent state or not.

It is the United Kingdom, not a single country and never has been and never will be.
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So Scottish people only huh! So those Scots living outside Scotland why can't they vote? English people living in Scotland on the day do get a vote but by your rules they shouldn't be allowed?

Not so easy is it.

Now if the terms of the divorce break up were to be voted on I would say yes ok only those living in Scotland should get the say but is not that way is it as we have the Nats saying they will keep the pound and the UK government saying no way. No agreement on debt share, on Faslane on energy, defense, trade, EU membership the list goes on and on.

So English folk get no say on this? I don;t think thats fair/democratic and I don;t think it is stupid to say so either.

Finally never said the UK was a single country just a credit union (and a very successful one too) hence my disquiet that no one knows really what they are voting for, as the Nats are saying we will break up this credit union then immediately re apply for a new one, and the rUK gets no say at all.
 

DeletedUser3371

Guest
No, not only Scottish people should have the vote Jo. I will thank you, not to put words in my mouth.

You are right in your point that the voting system is flawed not to allow Scottish people that will not be in the country on the day in question to vote.
It is also wrong - racist, in fact - to deny those other British citizens that have resided in Scotland for, let's say, at least for a 3 - 5 year period ... mind you , perhaps simply providing you are residing in Scotland with a British passport should be enough, but I digress from the very simple analogy I wish to make.

Raising the example to the European level did not gain any favour so let's make the simile smaller this time.

If you have been a member of your local credit union on the high street for the last 10 years, happily enjoying the profits and benefits as each year passes and thankful you were not a member of the 1 that failed and went into receivership just around the corner does this now mean that you cannot do anything other than put all your money in there every week for the rest of your life?

The time has come to pass that you want to do something different. You would like to leave the credit union regardless of how you have profited in the past.

Do you believe that if everybody else in the credit union says you can't leave unless we vote that you can means that you will happily embrace these sensible folks that won't let you go?

Btw, it is also my opinion that this whole forum could be filled with the other "irrelevant issues" that Scottish people will be taking into consideration. Though if you say they are not real issues then it must be ALL those silly Scots that are just plain wrong, as it couldn't be you, could it Jo?
 

DeletedUser5582

Guest
PeterDGreat1 said:
No, not only Scottish people should have the vote Jo. I will thank you, not to put words in my mouth.
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what?! I ddin't I just quoted you when you said this...

PeterDGreat1 said:
Why on earth should anybody else other than a Scottish person have a vote on their choice to be an independent state or not.
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See you say only Scottish folk should be able to vote on this and I don't agree with that. Why? Well simply put if the terms of the "divorce" were already decided (so on currency, debt partition, Faslane etc etc) then technically the rUK has had its say through our MP's.

But thats not the case is it as there is the vote on Independence then there will be negotiations as to who does what to whom. Am very sorry but I don't agree with that as the rest of the UK won;t get a say on it.

Am not disagreeing that someone can't leave the credit union (nice analogy by the way) just the terms of the breaking of the contract should be known to all before that person leaves.

Your final paragraph doesn't really make sense. What irrelevant issues are you talking about? Where am I saying these aren't relevant and how does this make Scots voting yes idiots and me like the Delphi oracle?
 

DeletedUser3371

Guest
Zing! ... a classic al comeback from Jo! Thanks for the perfect lead in


Culture Jo, culture and character ... Scotland has it in buckloads that are constantly being subsumed into 1 homogeneous and expanded English society.

Will being a separate nation stop this from happening? No. Not a chance. Will it prolong the inevitable? Probably. Wold that be worth the cost? (double meaning intended)

Definately, imo.
 

DeletedUser5582

Guest
PeterDGreat1 said:
Zing! ... a classic al comeback from Jo! Thanks for the perfect lead in
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This I believe translates as I am right surely?!

lol no one disputes your new points on culture. Having just been in Scotland (Edinburgh lovely city of any of you not been go) I was chatting about this with some locals and I did say that were I Scottish I would probably vote yes if there were certain things that were decided before the vote was held.

They won't be so I outlined why a Yes vote would be potentially dangerous.

On the issue of identity delaying the inevitable is it worth knackering the time you have left or you should just embrace the change?! I'm not sure but I live in an area run by an unelected quango (Lake District National Park) which is hell bent on ethnic cleansing and would not wish this on anyone, especially not a fantastic group of folk such as the Scots. I genuinely believe that a Yes vote without having decided the key issues first could well turn Scotland into just such a place with the EU replacing the unelected wait they are unelected my bad...

On culture I see my language being hijacked by Microsoft spell checker and nothing I can do about it. My history being rewritten by Hollywood the list goes on....

Oh the humor :icon_twisted:
 

DeletedUser282

Guest
I'd imagine going with a new currency would make the most sense of Scotland if they went independent. I don't really see the case for an newly independent Scotland going to junk bond status.

Staying in the pound and joining the Euro are both fairly yucky ideas.

I think If I were Scottish I think I'd probably vote yes out of frustration with the UK government. (But please don't Scotland- as I said before- your dislike of the conservatives is immensely electorally beneficial to the rest of us [though frankly the other two parties are fairly pathetic as of now too]

That idea (of independence working well) would rely fairly heavily on Salmond being told what to do by people who understand how things work rather than with the zombie ideas the UK government runs on now.

LightyJo said:
Lets ignore the banking crisis as I don't think I have the patience to explain the whys to you but am sure Adam Smith (scottish) would be weeping a little bit
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Agreed.
"Such regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respect a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments; of the most free, as well as or the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade which are here proposed."
Seems like he would have been sad that there was a lack of regulation to prevent bailouts from becoming necessary.
 
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DeletedUser5582

Guest
Gargareth said:
I don't really see the case for an newly independent Scotland going to junk bond status.

Staying in the pound and joining the Euro are both fairly yucky ideas.
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Am just going to pick up on this point. Am sure I outlined above why a Scottish currency would, in my opinion, go to junk bond status but lets recap.

You lose the bank of last resort so all your financial sector domicile themselves in rUK thus depriving the new government of tax revenues.

Yet spending remains high so borrowing creeps up. (am being optimistic about how fast borrowing would go up).

You also have a large debt to start off with. The money markets look at this, look at declining oil revenues and the ability of the new government to service debts and think the risk is high.

Junk Bond is BBB and below so not hard to get.

However, if you see an alternative to this scenario then am keen to hear it but for me, alas, I think if they went for the Haggi (you heard it hear first :icon_cool:) it would go a junk bond status pretty quick.

Of course would rUK allow this as I would imagine the Bank of England would buy huge quantities of Scottish debt to stop this from occurring which takes us back to the "why would you leave a credit union only to apply to rejoin" debate
 

DeletedUser282

Guest
With the banks it's an interesting question, my initial thoughts were similar to the findings of the blackrock report yesterday
"A wholesale exodus of staff and operations would be unlikely, given Scotland's cost advantage over London and other locations."

There would likely be some reduction in the size of the Scottish financial sector causing some short term pain, but really for long term judgements, a reduction in the size of the banking sector in Scotland wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing. (It is a fairly absurdly high after all)

As well as the S&P report on an independent Scotlands probable rating if it were to go for a new currency. [The general theme being that it would likely be worse but non-awful] (With all the same reasons, Scotland has fairly flexible product and labour markets and relatively transparent institutions. [I'm essentially assuming that regardless of whatever Salmond has said- a fairly sane long term fiscal policy would emerge for this]
It would start with rather high levels of public debt but this doesn't need to be disastrous, look at Belgium.

In any case an independent currency seems like the best option for an independent Scotland. I don't think staying in the pound would be a very good idea and I really really dislike any solution that has them joining the euro.
 

Maggie Wallis

Well-Known Member
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some times a little knowledge is dangerous... there is a random EU law that requires banks to have their headquarters in the country they do most business... if Scotland becomes independent, it also becomes a non-eu member... two very simple reason why the banks could no longer have their headquarters in Scotland... so no, a wholesale exodus of staff and operations would be unlikely... but the headquarters would move faster than you can say independence... more importantly moving the corporation tax paid by these bank from an independent Scotland to England...

Add in that the FCA has already stated that any FS company based in Scotland would cease to be regulated by the FCA... hence leaving a period whilst an independent Scotland scrabbles around to form their own regulatory body where any Scottish based FS company would be unable to operate in any part of the EU... a situation that could well last until and Independent Scotland joins the EU, should that be possible.... not the best for business... one of the many reasons Standard Life have already announced, to calm shareholders fears, that they are putting contingency plans in place to move out of Scotland should it be a 'yes' vote...

Though I'm sure you are aware that uncertainty is bad for business the 50% share price fall in 12 hours after the recent budget announcement of Just Retirement and Partnership Assurance demonstrates the point well...

Perhaps if the Salmon would actually say what he will do should the vote be yes and be able to show businesses that plans are in place and steps being taken to deal with any issues then businesses might not need contingency plans to jump the border asap after a yes vote is announced...

I think the abilities of his party were well summed up when they were ask for a response to the budget... and all they could say was 'this is the last time London will be able to effect Scotland'... right up there with other playground favourites like 'he started it...'

I think the salmon should get on the phone to Putin and ask to be annexed with the Crimea into some kind of socialist heaven where oligarchs pull the stings...

If the Scottish are daft enough to vote yes... then they deserve what they get... as we should all be careful what we wish for...
 

DeletedUser5582

Guest
@ Gargareth. I agree with that. My fear is that the Nats being socialist (Salmond being an ex communist) would heave Scotland into debt very quickly forcing another Darien rescue from the Bank of England as Scptland would be a vital trade partner.

This is why I think all of the Uk should get the vote as it does and will affect all of us but hey ho lets not go there.

@ Meechan. Lol I bet your eyes lit up when you saw that huh! Edinburgh, I believe, is the 2nd riches city in the Uk. You should note though that whilst Scotland is the third richest region see how far it is behind London and the South east. To put into context if California separated from the USA it would become the 8th largest economy in the world.

Sometimes being third, whilst merits a well done you, is still a bit pony.

Anyway we shall see what happens I guess I just wish as Rob states above Salmond would be a little more honest with his electorate.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!


and to all those naysayers I say to you.....
images


 

DeletedUser

Guest
Indeed, what a shame, was a real opportunity.

I reckon most were fooled by the nocamp scaremongering, but that's just my opinion.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
This morning Braveheart woke up, washed his face and went to work..
 
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