Scripting of the rally point allowed - has tribalwars lost its way

[DeletedUser]

Okay, I agree Tharg, my description of the car race wasn't the best, but once again I was assuming people would choose not to break the rules because there competing against others and it goes against the spirit of things. Touché though.

@ - Phoenix - *insert intelligence insult here* I would use a real one, but I've recently been infracted for calling into question a persons mental capacities so I'll refrain this time and simply post a simple definition of a script to help you understand how foolish you are.

Originally Posted by http://www.techterms.com/definition/script
A computer script is a list of commands that are executed by a certain program or scripting engine. Scripts may be used to automate processes on a local computer or to generate Web pages on the Web.

Here are three definitions you may want to consider taken from the same site you quoted from.

Script

A computer script is a list of commands that are executed by a certain program or scripting engine. Scripts may be used to automate processes on a local computer or to generate Web pages on the Web. For example, DOS scripts and VB Scripts may be used to run processes on Windows machines, while AppleScript scripts can automate tasks on Macintosh computers. ASP, JSP, and PHP scripts are often run on Web servers to generate dynamic Web page content.

Script files are usually just text documents that contain instructions written in a certain scripting language. This means most scripts can be opened and edited using a basic text editor. However, when opened by the appropriate scripting engine, the commands within the script are executed. VB (Visual Basic) scripts, for example, will run when double-clicked, using Windows' built-in VB scripting support. Since VB scripts can access and modify local files, you should never run a VB script that you receive as an unknown e-mail attachment.

Keyboard Shortcut

A keyboard shortcut is a key combination that performs a certain command, such as closing a window or saving a file. For example, pressing "Control-S" in a Windows program or "Command-S" on the Mac is the standard shortcut for saving an open document. You can also usually close a window on the Mac by pressing "Command-W" or by pressing "Alt-F4" in Windows. The shortcut for copying data is usually "Control-C" (Windows) or "Command-C" (Mac) and for pasting data, it is "Control-V" (Windows) or "Command-V" (Mac).

Most keyboard shortcuts are shortcuts for commands located in a program's menu bar. For example, most of the commands within the File and Edit menus have standard shortcuts. Each command that has a keyboard shortcut usually has the shortcut listed next to the command in the menu. For example, the Save option in a Windows program will usually have the text "Ctrl+S" next to it, indicating that pressing Control and S together will save the document.

While most keyboard shortcuts are located in a program's menu bar, there are many keyboard shortcuts that are sometimes not visible to the user.

Macro


Macro has two computer-related definitions, both of which involve making your computer experience more efficient.

1. A Keyboard Shortcut

The term "macro" is often used synonymously with "keyboard shortcut." Keyboard shortcuts are key combinations that perform commands, such as saving a file, closing a window, or copying and pasting data.

2. A Small Program

A macro can also be a small program, or script, that automates common tasks. These scripts are usually run within programs and can often be created by the user. For example, a user might record a macro for Microsoft Word that inserts his entire address when he presses a custom key combination. A Microsoft Excel user might record a macro to format the data in the selected column of a spreadsheet.

While Word and Excel both make it easy to create custom macros, many other programs allow users to create macros as well. However, not all programs refer to the automated commands as macros. For example, Photoshop allows users to record changes made to an image and saves the series of steps as an "action." These actions can then by applied to other images. Regardless of what they are called, macros can save you a lot of time by automating repetitive tasks. If you find yourself doing the same thing over and over again when using a certain program, you may want to simplify the process by recording a macro.

Firstly according to the above a keyboard shortcut is a marco and so too is a small program (or script). But seeing as both have their own definitions and are separated into different sections in the definition of a marco, we can see they are not the same thing. So in order to figure out which the T-method belongs to we can look a few things.

In the definition of a program according the the same site as the above definitions it states "A program (noun) is executable software that runs on a computer. It is similar to a script, but is often much larger in size and does not require a scripting engine to run."

This clearly states that a scripting engine is needed in order to run a script. To the best of my knowledge pressing "T" to act as a shortcut of "2; enter" does not need a scripting engine, therefore it is a shortcut not a script.

 

[DeletedUser1189]

If you insist then.

A scripting engine is not necessarily a pure program which is designed to run code for example C++, visual basic etc. The browser itself is built using code but can also act as the scripting engine. If opera had of so chosen they could of not released the information which allows you to create scripts, keyboard shortcuts, however you want to term it. But, for ease of use and functionality, they have allowed an interface within there menus which allow you to take core opera programming language commands which make the browser run and create a string of code which allows you to preform multiple functions with a single key press. This allows there users to create specialized opera specific scripts using there own programming code to automate tasks. Another straw man argument, which isin't even correct, which detracts from the point you are automating interaction with the rally point.

Focus next widget & Click button & Switch to next page & Focus next widget & Click button & Switch to next page & Focus next widget & Click button & Switch to next page & Focus next widget & Click Button & Switch to next page & focus next widget & click button

This is not a keyboard shortcut. Pressing 2 to move from one page to the next is a keyboard shortcut. Pressing T and having it preform multiple actions using a browser based coding language is a script.


Now can we close the thread, I'm getting bored of educating people who try to justify there need to break the rules.

 

[DeletedUser1189]

A quick question for the mods mainly, I've been doing more research into opera 'keyboard' short cutting since the person above griefed me about the definition of a script, as well as others challenging me over this not being a script and I have expanded my knowledge somewhat. I now believe I should be able to 'keyboard shortcut' my bookmark farming guide system presented in my video to a single click which will open all the reports, pause long enough while they open, and then use the same system as is allowed above to change pages and focus and click and rinse and repeat through all 400 reports. This would allow me to log four to five times a day and farm approx 1700 barbarians with the press of a button once at each login.

This new keyboard shortcut farming method is allowed right?

 

[DeletedUser]

A quick question for the mods mainly, I've been doing more research into opera 'keyboard' short cutting since the person above griefed me about the definition of a script, as well as others challenging me over this not being a script and I have expanded my knowledge somewhat. I now believe I should be able to 'keyboard shortcut' my bookmark farming guide system presented in my video to a single click which will open all the reports, pause long enough while they open, and then use the same system as is allowed above to change pages and focus and click and rinse and repeat through all 400 reports. This would allow me to log four to five times a day and farm approx 1700 barbarians with the press of a button once at each login.

This new keyboard shortcut farming method is allowed right?

[th]See? You found the idea's limits. ;-) As said, we cannot prove players using the "T-Method", because some users are capable to send horribly fast trains (i. e. on bad connections, which "jam" the commands, then they could arrive the game's servers allmost at once).

But if we find someone sending 10 or more commands within a second or hundreds of commands - always sent in the same pattern with the same gaps between them, we know it wasn't done manually. We're back to your racing example, where you cannot cheat undetected. So no, that's not allowed. And because we can trace that, one would get punished for using such automatic farming. [/th]

 

[DeletedUser1189]

Im not cheating though, as you have clearly said using these systems is not cheating? So are you saying that using 'keyboard short cuts' in this manner are illegal?

Edit, to clarify the question: if the t-method is not being declared illegal, how can automating something else which interacts with the rally point in exactly the same way be illegal? I dont understand.

 

[DeletedUser]

[th]Ok, you still seem to have some problems with reading and understanding, what I wrote earlier, don't you? Do you really want to fight this already lost war to its extend? How often do you need to be proven wrong, when will you understand and stop it?

I said sending a train with the method is legal. We had to allow it, because

a) we cannot prove its use,
b) it is possible to do it manually.​

If you extend the script that it sends dozen (or hundreds even) of commands within some few seconds,

a) we can prove you using a scripted/botted system
b) and it's not doable manually.​

See the difference now?
[/th]

 

[DeletedUser1189]

No I don't see the difference, I just see that you can easily prove one and not so easily the other, yet they are both the same thing, so why not just declare them both illegal?

Also my farming method is doable manually, as I have a video proving it can be done manually. You have to take into account that your own system stops you sending more than 5 attacks a second, meaning that you would need to modify the T method to include the command 'Delay, X' where X Delays next action for that amount of milliseconds so that you do not send more than 5 a second. A simple tweak to the t method.

Do you see the lack of difference now?

 

[DeletedUser]

[th]*sigh* I cannot be bothered to argue any longer with you, this will be my last attempt.

Try to "tweak" your method - ooops! - you cannot add a delay to your "script"? Hm. You proved it to be a "script language", yet it cannot add any delay between the commands? Bit sad, isn't it?

I like this definition better, because of the lack of functions, operators, constructors and variable-handling in Opera's "script language":

A macro is just a series of Opera commands. They can be assigned to a keystroke, mouse gesture, toolbar button or menu line.

You can "programm" things, which you can do with your mouse or per keystroke. Probably you could show me the function to "wait x seconds after I've clicked a link, before you perform to follow the URL", which have to be implemented in Opera already to add it to your genius "script".

Delay requirement: Opera doesn't stop and wait for operations to conclude when executing a macro [...].

That said, your impressive idea won't work with Opera's methods. So you'd have to find something else. Just be careful, because - in contrast to the Opera-macro - we may be able to prove you using it.

Anyway. Use your newly found method and accept the consequences. You asked if it would be allowed, I said no. That should be all that matters in this case.[/th]

[Quotes directly taken from Opera.com, they are not trying to sell their macros as script language.]​

 

[DeletedUser1189]

*sigh* back old bean. I couldnt be bothered to argue yesterday and ask for the thread to be closed, but it was left open so people could attempt to troll me more to justify there method for cheating.

I'm honestly not sure what your talking about with your macro ravings. But for a list of all commands you can use to program shortcuts into opera, in the same manner the T method has been built, here is a list. It will also work with operas methods, that much is clear if you gain an understanding of how the t method script functions and just update it.

http://my.opera.com/Tamil/blog/change-an-option-in-opera-dialog-automatically

You have obviously failed to see any irony ion what I've been saying as well. I don't need to cheat to be good. I have no intention of building a script to do something which I can do manually in a short space of time anyway and live with the knowledge that I'm not scripting anything.

All I can take away from this is that TW are unwilling to call illegal something which they know is illegal and against the spirit of the game. You say it is because it is undetectable but then that should not make a difference. You should allow the community to police it through education of players. Those who want to continue to cheat can do but know they are cheating.

The double standards here though I find sickening. You allow interaction of the rally point with the t-method, yet you will not allow the exact same method to be used to farm with. Even you must see how ridiculous that makes you look.

I am also tired arguing, will you now close the thread?

 

[DeletedUser]

*sigh* back old bean. I couldnt be bothered to argue yesterday and ask for the thread to be closed, but it was left open so people could attempt to troll me more to justify there method for cheating.

I'm honestly not sure what your talking about with your macro ravings. But for a list of all commands you can use to program shortcuts into opera, in the same manner the T method has been built, here is a list. It will also work with operas methods, that much is clear if you gain an understanding of how the t method script functions and just update it.

http://my.opera.com/Tamil/blog/change-an-option-in-opera-dialog-automatically

You have obviously failed to see any irony ion what I've been saying as well. I don't need to cheat to be good. I have no intention of building a script to do something which I can do manually in a short space of time anyway and live with the knowledge that I'm not scripting anything.

All I can take away from this is that TW are unwilling to call illegal something which they know is illegal and against the spirit of the game. You say it is because it is undetectable but then that should not make a difference. You should allow the community to police it through education of players. Those who want to continue to cheat can do but know they are cheating.

The double standards here though I find sickening. You allow interaction of the rally point with the t-method, yet you will not allow the exact same method to be used to farm with. Even you must see how ridiculous that makes you look.

I am also tired arguing, will you now close the thread?

[th]Ok, you can add a certain amount of seconds, that was new to me. But not randomly. As said, sending dozen of attacks, all with i. e. 0.5 seconds gap between them will get punished for botted play. Period.

And that's yet another thing, which I told before in this thread: The staff and the developers always were and always will be one step behind the cheaters' procedures.

You still don't see the difference between something being traceable or not. We could forbid the T-method twice per day, we will never be able to prove it. So you (and the other two honest players) would probably refrain from using it. And what would you win with it? Yes, nothing.

IF we could trace it, we would forbid it and hunt the players down for using it. Yet we can't. As for your other example we can trace it, thus we'll punish it. Simple, isn't it?[/th]

You say it is because it is undetectable but then that should not make a difference.

[th]Once more, probably repeating it a final time will finally let you understand it: The method being undetectable makes the difference!

Technically the T-Method WAS illegal since the server's beginnings as automatic actions to the rally point. Your "Spirit of the game" idea failed badly, because we got hundreds of tickets, asking "if that method would be legal - half of the tribe is using it already!". And guess what? We weren't capable to prove one single case. Thus we picked the lesser of two evils and allowed it to all rather than just to the "spiritless" players.

And last but not least: Why begging for the thread getting closed? We don't close threads unless they are getting out of control either due to off-topics, insults or spam. Neither is the case here.

[/th]

 

[DeletedUser]

For the record i know about it, have the ability to use it and could use it but so far for me old fashioned guile and skill have been sufficient to get me this far without the need to use it to defeat a village.
If i find someone that can snipe a normal 2E train then they just get battered and outsmarted until they lose it anyway. I dont see it as a particular advantage and unless i am up against someone using it i wouldn't bother. Roch to be honest i think you have a good point and are probably right, morally anyway but i dont think you have much to fear from it really.
I am bored to tears with farming though and would welcome some automation in that quarter.
Coplaying is the biggest diferential/ advantage in this game and would be first on my list to look at if you were going to try to balance things up.

 

[DeletedUser]

[th]Ok, you still seem to have some problems with reading and understanding, what I wrote earlier, don't you? Do you really want to fight this already lost war to its extend? How often do you need to be proven wrong, when will you understand and stop it?

I said sending a train with the method is legal. We had to allow it, because

a) we cannot prove its use,
b) it is possible to do it manually.​

If you extend the script that it sends dozen (or hundreds even) of commands within some few seconds,

a) we can prove you using a scripted/botted system
b) and it's not doable manually.​

See the difference now?
[/th]

Just to further elaborate this.

Having 4 attacks with times
01:17:31:062
01:17:31:063
01:17:31:064
01:17:31:065
etc would be legal, and un-noticeable. It's just a normal train, although it's a very fast one.

Your script/macro/command/shortcut would give some variation of this

01:17:31:062
01:17:31:063
01:17:31:064
01:17:31:065
01:17:32:062
01:17:32:063
01:17:32:064
01:17:32:065
01:17:33:062
01:17:33:063
01:17:33:064
01:17:33:065

That isn't possible by hand, and not only that, it's really, really obvious that it was done via macro.
Come on. Even if you set the delay to 900ms or even 1278ms, there should still be a massively obvious pattern every four attacks.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to further elaborate this.

Having 4 attacks with times
01:17:31:062
01:17:31:063
01:17:31:064
01:17:31:065
etc would be legal, and un-noticeable. It's just a normal train, although it's a very fast one.

Your script/macro/command/shortcut would give some variation of this

01:17:31:062
01:17:31:063
01:17:31:064
01:17:31:065
01:17:32:062
01:17:32:063
01:17:32:064
01:17:32:065
01:17:33:062
01:17:33:063
01:17:33:064
01:17:33:065

That isn't possible by hand, and not only that, it's really, really obvious that it was done via macro.
Come on. Even if you set the delay to 900ms or even 1278ms, there should still be a massively obvious pattern every four attacks.

[th]Yes,

that's obvious. Sadly it's not looking like that in the logs. Never. The gaps between the commands when sending them with your local PC <> the gaps of the commands received and processed by the servers. Depending on your connection, the distance, the provider, its used proxies etc. the gaps are altered.[/th]

 

[DeletedUser4320]

If you made a shortcut in your browser which was defined:

Click button & Switch to next page & Focus next widget

Then one could simply press and hold that shortcut for cycling through all tabs in a bookmarked farm run, would that be allowed?

 

[DeletedUser1189]

Thats basically the T-method Dubby for sending trains with a single key press. You can use it also to farm with but they have banned its use to farm and allowed it too send trains.

Go figure?

And no Admiral Awesome, as always your input although interesting is wrong.

The example you gave for what it would look like farming would not be possible as the servers will not process more than five commands a second. You sometimes hit this with book mark farming if you and cycling and clicking through your pages too quickly. This is why you would need to add a delay command into your key board 'short cuts'

Thinking about how the server processes commands as well and time delays Thagaron, it would be very simple to set up a group of keyboard shortcuts that you could use at different times which had randomly generated delays in them, added on top of that the speed of the internet and delay that day connecting to the server, discerning a pattern would be very very difficult. I wont go into details so as not to give anyone futher ideas as you have already kiboshed the idea, however I think all keyboard macroing should be declared illegal.

You may of got hundreds of tickets a day from people asking if it was legal and how half there tribe were using it but you could of simply responded with 'no, its illegal' just like you have done with keyboard shortcut farming. Which would also be undetectable. Not something im going to put to the test as I've spent too many man hours playing my account to throw it away trying to prove a point on the off chance you could prove it.

I'm curious though, as to how its undetectable. I would love to know the more tecchy aspect of it. My understanding is you will receive 4 or 5 page requests instantly all within a few m/s of each other. I don't believe its humanly possible to send trains that fast without scripting or macro'ing your browser as without the scripting you would need to manually as you are required to at least hit 10 buttons in order or some buttons and some mouse clicks. Mouse clicks would be even slower. You also need to take into time the amount of seconds it takes for button to be pressed and then depressed to register it as a second press? There should be a clear difference between an automated train input and a one done using the human body.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm curious though, as to how its undetectable. I would love to know the more tecchy aspect of it. My understanding is you will receive 4 or 5 page requests instantly all within a few m/s of each other. I don't believe its humanly possible to send trains that fast without scripting or macro'ing your browser as without the scripting you would need to manually as you are required to at least hit 10 buttons in order or some buttons and some mouse clicks. Mouse clicks would be even slower. You also need to take into time the amount of seconds it takes for button to be pressed and then depressed to register it as a second press? There should be a clear difference between an automated train input and a one done using the human body.

This is the crux of the argument i feel.

Many players can send tight MS trains manually, and match those of the "T-Method". Just because you cannot do it, does not mean it is not "humanly possible".

So by your understanding, that is why it is undetectable. Sending a super quick train manually, will also generate the page requests in a very short amount of MS, as is the case with the T-Method.

 

[DeletedUser]

[...] however I think all keyboard macroing should be declared illegal. [...]

[th]I'm slowly thinking, your only purpose to start this thead was stirring up the community, not starting a honest discussion. No-one could be that stupid to get the problems explained a couple of times without understanding the simplest things.

I could also forbid everyone to breathe while playing. That would have the same effect. No-one (bar some players with your desired "Spirit") would follow that rule. Simply because we cannot check everyone really holding his breath while playing.

Sure, you could add some different macros with different delays to hide your botted farming. But you'd have to re-programm them every time you use them. Because a repeating pattern would be detectable. And do you know what? I'm allowing it to you. Probably you may find out, that it takes more effort to use that method than bookmarked farming by hand. [/th]

I'm curious though, as to how its undetectable. I would love to know the more tecchy aspect of it. My understanding is you will receive 4 or 5 page requests instantly all within a few m/s of each other. I don't believe its humanly possible to send trains that fast without scripting or macro'ing your browser as without the scripting you would need to manually as you are required to at least hit 10 buttons in order or some buttons and some mouse clicks. Mouse clicks would be even slower. You also need to take into time the amount of seconds it takes for button to be pressed and then depressed to register it as a second press? There should be a clear difference between an automated train input and a one done using the human body.

[th]And that's exactly, why we - as the staff - decide and not you, obviously not having any clue about what's technically possible and what isn't. The worst connections could produce 1ms (!) trains. Accidentally. Their orders will get jammed in the internet, redirected via a tons of proxies and servers to finally get "boosted" to the game servers all at once. What now? Banning players with such connections? What's with a lot of players using a mobile connection or a horrible lagging W-LAN? The issues mentioned above could exactly happen to them, too. And it happens to such connections and players a lot day by day. So - to please Roch - we'll have to forbid mobile access and everyone has to use a direct connection, no networking PC. Fair is fair, we're trying to balance it for Roch's standards? BTW: Most players using the T-Method have different gaps between their commands, vary between 10 and 100 ms. So please, o great Roch, how can we see a train with 40,30,60,100 ms between the attacks got sent via T-Method? Explain it to me and I gladly will forbid it, because I finally have "Roch's macro-detector" to find the cheaters.

Get over it. You can continue whining about how unfair life is as long as you want to. It won't change a bit. 4 commands within some milliseconds could happen without scripting. And a macro is not detectable, because it's miming the user's actions. It doesn't use a different technique. It doesn't send any signature. It doesn't use any other parameters within the game. It simply presses the keys, which you would press and clicks the links you'd click. With the same result, the same "trace" outwards as you. There's no difference for the recipient do divide the one method or the other.
[/th]

 

[DeletedUser1189]

Thargoran, I think your being silly suggesting you forbid everyone to breath while playing as well as being insulting.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thargoran, I think your being silly suggesting you forbid everyone to breath while playing as well as being insulting.

[th]Why is this? I can detect you breathing or not breathing as much as using or not using the T-method. Where's the difference?[/th]

 

[DeletedUser]

Thargoran, I think your being silly suggesting you forbid everyone to breath while playing as well as being insulting.

If we needed any proof you were trolling. This was it :icon_razz: