DeletedUser
Guest
I see the slight contradiction but I hadn't editted the original post after speaking with OE in regards to the mechanics and whatnot of his strategy.
My apologies
My apologies
Nauzhror
Well-Known Member
- Reaction score
- 106
Even if we're talking HC strat I don't like OE's numbers.
1940 HC
9095 spears
My HC Strat:
Build Time: 8.42 days
My Rebuild-time: 6.79 days
OE's HC Strat:
Build Time: 10.19 days
Rebuild Time: 8.46 days
As shown mine takes less time to rebuild after killing a full nuke than his takes to build, from scratch.
EDIT: Re-simmed the above defenses and nukes on a non-archer world where the algorithm is different, math there is as follows:
My Defense:
16,673 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 6.77 days
OE's:
16,428 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 8.33 days
1940 HC
9095 spears
My HC Strat:
Build Time: 8.42 days
My Rebuild-time: 6.79 days
OE's HC Strat:
Build Time: 10.19 days
Rebuild Time: 8.46 days
As shown mine takes less time to rebuild after killing a full nuke than his takes to build, from scratch.
EDIT: Re-simmed the above defenses and nukes on a non-archer world where the algorithm is different, math there is as follows:
My Defense:
16,673 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 6.77 days
OE's:
16,428 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 8.33 days
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DeletedUser
Guest
Thats so nice guide sasuke
DeletedUser
Guest
nice guide
thx
thx
DeletedUser
Guest
Even if we're talking HC strat I don't like OE's numbers.
1940 HC
9095 spears
My HC Strat:
Build Time: 8.42 days
My Rebuild-time: 6.79 days
OE's HC Strat:
Build Time: 10.19 days
Rebuild Time: 8.46 days
As shown mine takes less time to rebuild after killing a full nuke than his takes to build, from scratch.
It's already imbalanced, with too much HC.
Look:
If you count all of the HC you have in the one village, it will be weak to cavalry-strong offenses.
It's important to build these extra spears because they provide a more solid defense.
If you use the support calculator* from the above screen cap, you'll see that for any timeframe where not all villages can support with spears, but some can support with HC... that there will be a huge imbalance with spears running at a deficit.
In such a case, even if you've used all of your nukes, there are still too many HC for the amount of spears, if you want your defense balanced.
*Support calculator: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=fe97ca57aa03f3cc61d4646c62b381cbe04e75f6e8ebb871
OE is more intelligent than you give him credit for.
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DeletedUser
Guest
Thanks Withering, I have seen that in when I test builds on the sim, some do better than other is minimal ways, but most defend quite the same and have about the same loss of troops for the offense attacking. There is no perfect build and there never will be, even if you kill 100 more axes, I can almost bet you are going to have another 7000 coming at you soon.
DeletedUser
Guest
great post , so true .
DeletedUser
Guest
Witheringxuponxlove - Very good post. The point being missed by most people is how the stacking of offensive HC in your defensive village inflates your HC numbers so strongly. When you've got a 2:1 O
ratio, you're capable of stacking an extra 2500 HC into your villag. If you do the same with Nauzhror's numbers you'll end up with nearly as many HC as Spears (It'll end up as 9000 spears to 6000 HC. Not a balanced ratio :icon_razz: )
Even when you're only stacking with half your O villages it's 9000/4000.
Nauzhor's numbers are better if you don't plan to stack from your O villages (Not really *the* HC strat at that point though) or if you've got a more balanced ratio (1:1 O for example)
ratio, you're capable of stacking an extra 2500 HC into your villag. If you do the same with Nauzhror's numbers you'll end up with nearly as many HC as Spears (It'll end up as 9000 spears to 6000 HC. Not a balanced ratio :icon_razz: ) Even when you're only stacking with half your O villages it's 9000/4000.
Nauzhor's numbers are better if you don't plan to stack from your O villages (Not really *the* HC strat at that point though) or if you've got a more balanced ratio (1:1 O
for example)DeletedUser
Guest
I pulled these power stats from w17, and calculated the speeds by halving w17s (speed 1 world). Below in Figure 1 you will see Nauzhror's strategy. And in Figure 2 you will see the OE strategy.Even if we're talking HC strat I don't like OE's numbers.
1940 HC
9095 spears
My HC Strat:
Build Time: 8.42 days
My Rebuild-time: 6.79 days
OE's HC Strat:
Build Time: 10.19 days
Rebuild Time: 8.46 days
As shown mine takes less time to rebuild after killing a full nuke than his takes to build, from scratch.
EDIT: Re-simmed the above defenses and nukes on a non-archer world where the algorithm is different, math there is as follows:
My Defense:
16,673 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 6.77 days
OE's:
16,428 pop killed
Rebuild Time: 8.33 days
OpenEye's takes longer to build, and is weaker overall.
Thanks for posting the discussion everyone.
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DeletedUser
Guest
I always found OE to be SP heavy as well however do not forget that due to troop speed it always had extra H/cav from a nuke with it so the extra SP offset that. But as mentioned it is for a tec world. But its nice to see a few options to play around with.
One point that was made was about being better against a MA heavy nuke yet every guide I have read mentions not to make them due to time pop & resources.
Thanks you Sasuke Uzumakii for being brave & going to print with a guide. I understand the use of using OE D as a base line as you have to look at some other option to give results.
Also never understand why the low ram count with nukes as after 6 months or so you are going to be hitting at least 3 D per village even with fakes.
One point that was made was about being better against a MA heavy nuke yet every guide I have read mentions not to make them due to time pop & resources.
Thanks you Sasuke Uzumakii for being brave & going to print with a guide. I understand the use of using OE D as a base line as you have to look at some other option to give results.
Also never understand why the low ram count with nukes as after 6 months or so you are going to be hitting at least 3 D per village even with fakes.
DeletedUser
Guest
I also used my spreadsheet to come up with a fast Offence.
I am comparing this to Sasuke's Offence.
I am comparing this to Sasuke's Offence.
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DeletedUser
Guest
Did they not change the strength of some troops unsure which world think it was around W24 on .net it was also when they changed how sims work not saying you are wrong however might be worth a check I know I had to change mine for a few late worlds.
Nauzhror
Well-Known Member
- Reaction score
- 106
Because it's more effective to use special wallbuster nukes and fewer rams in your normal nukes.
Below are two scenarios.
Your way:
Wave 1:
Attacker Units: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Defender Units: 19335 0 0 5592 0 0 0 6233 0 0 0 0
Losses: 2867 0 0 829 0 0 0 924 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 20 to level 17
Wave 2:
Attacker Units: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Defender Units: 16468 0 0 4763 0 0 0 5309 0 0 0 0
Losses: 3281 0 0 949 0 0 0 1058 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 17 to level 12
Wave 3:
Attacker Units: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Defender Units: 13187 0 0 3814 0 0 0 4251 0 0 0 0
Losses: 4318 0 0 1249 0 0 0 1392 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 12 to level 0
Wave 4:
Attacker Units: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Defender Units: 8869 0 0 2565 0 0 0 2859 0 0 0 0
Losses: 7303 0 0 2112 0 0 0 2354 0 0 0 0
Wave 5:
Attacker Units: 0 0 5999 0 0 3309 0 0 300 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 616 0 0 279 0 0 31 0 0 0
Defender Units: 1566 0 0 453 0 0 0 505 0 0 0 0
Losses: 1566 0 0 453 0 0 0 505 0 0 0 0
Scenario 2:
Wave 1:
Attacker Units: 0 0 4907 0 0 2707 0 0 1000 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 4907 0 0 2707 0 0 1000 0 0 0
Defender Units: 19335 0 0 5592 0 0 0 6233 0 0 0 0
Losses: 2130 0 0 616 0 0 0 687 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 20 to level 13
Wave 2:
Attacker Units: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Defender Units: 17205 0 0 4976 0 0 0 5546 0 0 0 0
Losses: 3700 0 0 1070 0 0 0 1193 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 13 to level 7
Wave 3:
Attacker Units: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Defender Units: 13505 0 0 3906 0 0 0 4353 0 0 0 0
Losses: 4919 0 0 1423 0 0 0 1586 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 7 to level 0
Wave 4:
Attacker Units: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Defender Units: 8586 0 0 2483 0 0 0 2767 0 0 0 0
Losses: 7674 0 0 2219 0 0 0 2473 0 0 0 0
Wave 5:
Attacker Units: 0 0 6130 0 0 3385 0 0 213 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 271 0 0 123 0 0 9 0 0 0
Defender Units: 912 0 0 264 0 0 0 294 0 0 0 0
Losses: 912 0 0 264 0 0 0 294 0 0 0 0
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DeletedUser
Guest
Both took 5 hits but the nuke you put me down as building would be ready to go again before your "nuke pack" plus I could send in any order from any village.
I also note that the wall was taken down in both on the 3rd hit so no gain there either.
I also note that the wall was taken down in both on the 3rd hit so no gain there either.
Nauzhror
Well-Known Member
- Reaction score
- 106
Less losses in 5th nuke in the scenario with 1000 rams in first nuke and less from then on though. I tried first 2 waves with 1000 each, still took 5 waves, but lowered wall on wave 2, but that way actually had more losses overall due to there being more troops left after wave 2.
DeletedUser
Guest
The idea of using bunker busters is that you don't need to use rams in the other nukes. They don't change a thing anyway.
That is, you build your bunker busters and nobles closest to the frontline, and then your ram-free nukes come from further away.
This means that your war machine operates faster and that you can mobilize your offense to the frontline quickly and act with the element of surprise (as opposed to ram speed attacks from the far away villages)...
Wave 1 (12.58 days):
Attacker Units: 0 0 5300 0 0 2379 350 0 814 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5300 0 0 2379 350 0 814 0 0 0
Defender Units: 19335 0 0 5592 0 0 0 6233 0 0 0 0
Losses: 2217 0 0 641 0 0 0 715 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 20 to level 16
Wave 2 (12.58 days):
Attacker Units: 0 0 5300 0 0 2379 350 0 814 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 5300 0 0 2379 350 0 814 0 0 0
Defender Units: 17118 0 0 4951 0 0 0 5518 0 0 0 0
Losses: 2628 0 0 760 0 0 0 847 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 16 to level 8
Wave 3 (14.40 days):
Attacker Units: 0 0 6060 0 0 2796 350 0 412 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 6060 0 0 2796 350 0 412 0 0 0
Defender Units: 14490 0 0 4191 0 0 0 4671 0 0 0 0
Losses: 4372 0 0 1265 0 0 0 1409 0 0 0 0
Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 8 to level 0
Wave 4 (15.91 days):
Attacker Units: 0 0 6705 0 0 3149 350 0 0 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 6705 0 0 3149 350 0 0 0 0 0
Defender Units: 10118 0 0 2926 0 0 0 3262 0 0 0 0
Losses: 7603 0 0 2199 0 0 0 2451 0 0 0 0
Wave 5 (15.91 days):
Attacker Units: 0 0 6705 0 0 3149 350 0 0 0 0 0
Losses: 0 0 1262 0 0 486 51 0 0 0 0 0
Defender Units: 2515 0 0 727 0 0 0 811 0 0 0 0
Losses: 2515 0 0 727 0 0 0 811 0 0 0 0
My last nuke takes more of a beating...
But...
Looking at the average total rebuild times...
12 days for Nauz.
11.76 days for Triumphant.
11.7 days for Mine.
We see what matters. Time.
Nauz's first bb isn't very time efficient.
I think it needs some adjustment.
Additionally, neither of the first two included mounted archers... so maybe the assessment was slightly unfair.
DeletedUser
Guest
I feel the need to point out that OE isn't using archers in either of his, isn't that his guide for old world systems making the comparison obsolete?
Nauzhror
Well-Known Member
- Reaction score
- 106
Not really the point, he wouldn't have used them anyway as his method was solely intended for 15-tech worlds which would make most people not be able to comfortably research archers anyway.
DeletedUser
Guest
Didn't he just say that?
The comparison... obsolete... because that's OE's guide for old worlds, which is why he didn't use arhcers.
OE has said that the OE strat is obsolete on simple tech worlds because it was designed for worlds where you're limited to 5x lvl 3 techs.
DeletedUser
Guest
OE Strategy is still effective, but with the additional day or two build time, its not as efficient as most other strategies. Regardless of different defensive set ups, all nukes fair better without Mounted Archers. In the odd case where a player uses 20,000 farm space for just Spearman, then that not only takes up 17 days, but leaves your resources lop-sided, and you actually have weaker defences in every attribute!
I find having about 9k spears and 2k heavy you get a fast build, with stronger defence in all attributes. You can use the the HC strategy, by having only Spear+Heavy and Axe+Heavy+Ram, which provides you with a massive amount of defence, and the difference in Offensive power is very small, but lower of course.
I find having about 9k spears and 2k heavy you get a fast build, with stronger defence in all attributes. You can use the the HC strategy, by having only Spear+Heavy and Axe+Heavy+Ram, which provides you with a massive amount of defence, and the difference in Offensive power is very small, but lower of course.
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