Start up vs Late game

[DeletedUser8385]

Did i just reasd right. You challenged someone to wakeup at 5am or stayup until 5 am to send attacks on a game to prove that they have the "dedication" needed to be good at late game.
Well there goes your argument..........

i challenge him to do it for days with only a.few hours sleep when possible..... been there :icon_redface:

 

[DeletedUser]

Actually it's great fun. Especially waking up to find you have to actually be challenged. You all just proved that Late Game doesn't have to be boring. :icon_razz:

PS. Nauz, it's only "OK" it doesn't actually say "Okay" on every button :icon_cool:

 

[DeletedUser]

In-game insults have never been against the rules. Real-life insults are. It's that simple. Also if you have a problem with moderation you mail a moderator or an admin, you do not make a post whining. Understood?

Civilise your tongue, and set an example as a moderator rather than being so brutal. You aren't just a regular forum poster; your standards should be higher than an ordinary poster. Don't accuse people of whining over the forums. And don't whine in response. I can whinge as I'm no moderator. You have an example to set. Set it.

Know your position and its responsibilities.

What the hell does that have to do with skill? That has to do with having no life. Especially because number of plunders means nothing, number of resources hauled is all that matters.

It is widely known that those that commit more time to TW do better, assuming skill is equal between the comparisions. Thus, one who farms more will outgrow one who farms less, all things being equal.

When I stated plunders, I did not refer to empty ones; almost all my farm runs are planned so that they you get few empty hauls. Therefore, don't think I'm getting empty plunders; for the purposes for this post, you can assume that when I refer to plunders, the majority of them are full.

If you can outfarm everyone else at startup where farming takes far more know-how (ensuring all full hauls with as little wasted travel time as possible) you can certainly do it later on when efficiency is unimportant. Being able to do something and wanting to though are completely different things. Sorry, I do not, nor ever will have, the willingness to sit staring at a screen long enough to click "Okay" 20,000+ times.

Its ok to admit you can't due to finding it "boring". Another startup excuse from yet another startup player too blinded to see the difference in commitment needed for late-game.

And yes you are right, calculating efficient farming at startup is way more important at late-game, you can counteract late-game inefficiency by simply farming more if needed. That being said, I try to get more resources with less plunders, as it involves less clicking on my part.

I do that every world. Can't remember the last time I requested support, can remember the last time I sent support though (4-5 times this week).

Haha, yeah, sorry to break it to you, but doing that at startup is easy as hell, try the same thing at late-game. I wager its a lot harder then. I'm sure you are aware its harder to defend against so many incomings on your own. Have you recently been in that situation? No. So your recollections must be pretty dusty. Remind yourself, then get back to me on whether its a legit comparision to compare startup defending with late-game defending.

You don't seem to get it. Wanting to have no social life and being a good player aren't the same. None of the things you're listing are hard to do. They're just things that doing requires selling your soul to a game, something I will never do, because it's just that to me, a game.

If all other factors, such as skill and knowledge (and perhaps luck), are equal, success is determined by activity. Thus, the more active a player is, the more effective he/she will be.

Thus, while it is true that that is to the detriment of RL, a no-social-life guy will beat one who does have a life, even if both players are of equal skill. Purely due to increased activity leading to increased farming, leading to increased gold coin counts, leading to more nobles, leading to more growth, leading to outgrowing the socially acceptable opponent.

Do you admit you can be defeated by such a social recluse because you consider yourself to be socially acceptable? If so, then we have no argument on this point.

Anyone I have any respect for knows I'm better at this game than you. I have zero respect for you as a player so see no need to prove myself to you.

Don't try smashing your ego into me; I'd break you like a twig late-game, make no mistake. You need to prove yourself to me late-game; I'm not questioning your startup skill, do something decent for a change and don't question my late-game expertise. For your own sake.

You're only better than me at startup. I'm better than you late-game. Take this pin and puncture your ego. And don't try playing ego wars with me, either, I'm the last person that will work on. *smirk*

Red.

 

[Nauzhror]

Civilise your tongue, and set an example as a moderator rather than being so brutal. You aren't just a regular forum poster; your standards should be higher than an ordinary poster. Don't accuse people of whining over the forums. And don't whine in response. I can whinge as I'm no moderator. You have an example to set. Set it.

Know your position and its responsibilities.

I don't think you decide what my responsibilities are nor what my position entails. On this forum I indeed, am, just a regular poster.

It is widely known that those that commit more time to TW do better, assuming skill is equal between the comparisions. Thus, one who farms more will outgrow one who farms less, all things being equal.

Doing well and being good aren't the same thing either. Lots of players are quite good, but don't usually do well due to lacking the time necessary to do so.

Haha, yeah, sorry to break it to you, but doing that at startup is easy as hell, try the same thing at late-game.

No, it's indeed harder to defend early game without outside support than late game because you have far less troops to stack yourself with. Most players start with pure, or close to pure offense, the ratio of offense vs. defense on the world is much different early on than later, this can be seen by comparing the following two pages:

http://uk1.tribalwars.co.uk/stat.php

233.48 million axes
88.42 million lc
13.70 million ma

315.17 million spears
230.36 million swords
227.54 million arch
80.35 million hc

Total offense population: 655660000

Total defense population: 1255170000

Defense / offense = 1.91
http://uk6.tribalwars.co.uk/stat.php

1.27 million axes
634,710 lc
39,815 ma

1.18 million spears
797,921 swords
268,181 archers
39,864 hc

Total offense population: 4007915

Total defense population: 2485286

Defense / offense = .62

If all other factors, such as skill and knowledge (and perhaps luck), are equal, success is determined by activity. Thus, the more active a player is, the more effective he/she will be.

Duh. But guess what, skill and knowledge are rarely (if ever) equal. again a good player and a successful player are not the same thing.

 

[DeletedUser1511]

Red.

So your arguement about why you are a good late game player is because you have no life. This is gradually getting worse:icon_neutral:

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't think you decide what my responsibilities are nor what my position entails. On this forum I indeed, am, just a regular poster.

Where did I say I was deciding, hmm? I simply told you to be more civilised to people. Don't whine.

Doing well and being good aren't the same thing either. Lots of players are quite good, but don't usually do well due to lacking the time necessary to do so.

Correct. But that means they are defeated by players that are more able to put the time. These players may have slightly less skill, but that is not true in many cases.

No, it's indeed harder to defend early game without outside support than late game because you have far less troops to stack yourself with.

You also have less incomings/offence to defend against, which makes it easier to defend at startup. Also you aim to dominate your area at startup; thus reducing the need for adequate defence (as proven by most top-20 players being mostly O with a little D for coordinated stacking).

Thus, while in late-game you have more D to defend with, you also have an exponentially larger number of incomings and offensive power to defend against. This ratio of available defence you have compared to enemy offensives upon you is much larger in late-game compared to startup, thus late-game defending is harder than startup; purely cause, beyond the odd snipe, backtime, and tribal coordinated support of small D reserves to a target under noble attack, defensive tactics are pretty rare at startup.

At late-game, they are very common and employed on an INDIVUDIAL level, which makes its all the more harder on the individual player. Startup defending relies on the tribe a lot more, which means less work for the said player under attack.

Duh. But guess what, skill and knowledge are rarely (if ever) equal. again a good player and a successful player are not the same thing.

Being exactly equal isn't a requirement, as long as they are close. I doubt there is little you know that I don't about late-game, for example.

Red.

So your arguement about why you are a good late game player is because you have no life. This is gradually getting worse:icon_neutral:

I won't deny I had my days when I was OPing some poor sod, that it wouldn't be uncommon for me to burn the midnight oil launching perfectly timed attacks.

That being said, I wouldn't say I was socially inept.

My point is, all things being equal, activity determines your success at late-game. Thus, all one has to do is be more active than his opponent, outfarm them (and therefore outgrow them), play just as well as them (if not better), and one can beat them.

Thus, a player who is socially inept will devote more time to TW, and will overtake those who are more socially acceptable. This effect is magnified at late-game specifically. At startup, this is counteracted with coplayers; at late-game, its hard to find enough coplayers willing to make such a massive farming commitment. Since effort is directly correlated with the difficulty of a said task, one can further argue that late-game is harder than startup as a result.

 

[Nauzhror]

This ratio of available defence you have compared to enemy offensives upon you is much larger in late-game compared to startup, thus late-game defending is harder than startup;

That couldn't be more wrong. you might get attacked less at startup, but you generally actually get more incomings per village at startup, and you have a much lower ratio of available defense vs. incoming offense at startup than during late-game.

You can certainly argue defending is more time consuming later on, which is true, but to argue that the ratio between available defense and incoming offense is moreso in the defender's ratio is simply daft and proven incorrect by the numbers above showing that the ratio is over four times moreso in the defender's ratio late-game than it is in startup.

 

[DeletedUser]

That couldn't be more wrong. you might get attacked less at startup, but you generally actually get more incomings per village at startup, and you have a much lower ratio of available defense vs. incoming offense at startup than during late-game.

You can certainly argue defending is more time consuming later on, which is true, but to argue that the ratio between available defense and incoming offense is moreso in the defender's ratio is simply daft and proven incorrect by the numbers above showing that the ratio is over four times moreso in the defender's ratio late-game than it is in startup.

To address your first paragraph, I disagree. At startup, it is unlikely you'll ever get incomings greater in number than 10 at your first village (unless there is some conspiracy against you, but then you are just really unfortunate and should quit if they are real incomings).

At late-game, having 10 incomings on each of your villages in not uncommon. At 200 villages, that represents 2k incomings. That's a standard OP by net. standards, and a devoted OP by UK standards (due to UK's lack of fake scripts).

Thus, your point that you get more incomings per village at startup, is incorrect. However your point regarding having a much lower ratio of available defence vs incoming offence is most correct.

Numbers do not perfectly correlate to the time and effort it takes to defend at late-game. We are agreed that the effort of defending is much greater in late-game (I think?) and thus, as tasks that require more effort are harder tasks, we can conclude late-game is harder when it comes to defending?

 

[DeletedUser]

I challenge you Nauzhror, to be committed enough to stay up to 5am, launching nukes, trains, and trailling support, to land just after NB ends at 7am, so that you have multiple trains landing on exactly the same second on targets that number into double figures.

It's funny that the last world I played in I got rimmed for not waking up at 5 am. :lol:

 

[DeletedUser8385]

To address your first paragraph, I disagree. At startup, it is unlikely you'll ever get incomings greater in number than 10 at your first village (unless there is some conspiracy against you, but then you are just really unfortunate and should quit if they are real incomings).

At late-game, having 10 incomings on each of your villages in not uncommon. At 200 villages, that represents 2k incomings. That's a standard OP by net. standards, and a devoted OP by UK standards (due to UK's lack of fake scripts).

Thus, your point that you get more incomings per village at startup, is incorrect. However your point regarding having a much lower ratio of available defence vs incoming offence is most correct.

Numbers do not perfectly correlate to the time and effort it takes to defend at late-game. We are agreed that the effort of defending is much greater in late-game (I think?) and thus, as tasks that require more effort are harder tasks, we can conclude late-game is harder when it comes to defending?

1 thats actually common, especially with incoming cat trains

2. 2k incomings at 200 villages is a reallyyyyyyy smalllllll op i send bigger solo ones all timed to the second without fake scripts
i have sent more then 10 incomings per village to people as well this world just like i would late game as this world has no fake limit

as a result people stack the wrong vill for a fake train anddddddd

Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 20 to level 1
Damage by catapults: The Farm has been damaged and downgraded from level24 to level21

their village becomes that much harder to defend

 

[DeletedUser]

I won't deny I had my days when I was OPing some poor sod, that it wouldn't be uncommon for me to burn the midnight oil launching perfectly timed attacks.

Having been on the same account as you for a couple of days (as a favour to tasha.) You didn't farm, conceded you had no life yet achieved half what I managed despite being online twice as much. And you certainly can't "perfectly time" attacks.

Your argument seems to be late game requires you to be a mindless automaton who hits OK 20000 times a day and has a shocking new fangled toy called an 'alarm clock' :icon_surprised: in order to send nukes at the right time.

You show me the rank one account with a clear lead and 200+ villages your playing on which back sup your opinion and i'll show you the start-up account at rank 1 with 5-10 villages and a clear lead which backs up mine.

Problem with pretending to hold all the cards is when someone calls your bluff you lose.

 

[DeletedUser]

Problem with pretending to hold all the cards is when someone calls your bluff you lose.

I like and respect you Sneggy.
Always have.
But, i cant really see what your getting at here.


How can you call someones bluff, with regards to their opinion?

Its like a Christian arguing with an Atheist.
One believes one thing, one believes the other.
Thats what ive been trying to tell you guys, about 'prove this and get facts for that'.
You dont need proof, when you honestly believe something.

No Christians need to prove there is a god - they believe there is, and Atheists cant prove there aint one, lol.


Seems that both my own and Adellions opinions are the same, with regards to us both believe that Late game is harder then start-up.

Now, i never ever said any of you start-up guys are noobs.
Never said that and neither did Adellion.


But if you compare the 2 games, Start-up and Late game.

• Is farming easier with 10 villages or 500 villages?
• Is defending easier against a few players or a whole tribe?
• Is attacking easier against a few players in your 15x15 or 45x45 or what ever, or a planned and coordinated Op. against a whole area of many dozens of villages?
• Is it easier to snipe 1 train or several in the space of a few hours?
• Is is easier to rename a few attacks or several hundred or even thousands?

No one is saying start-up guys are noobs, or that they are quitters, or that they cant handle Late game, as if your good at start-up you, with a bit of effort would be good at Late game.

But what myself and Adellion are trying to say, is that we BOTH believe that Late game is harder, overall.
If you count all factors.

 

[DeletedUser]

I like and respect you Sneggy.
Always have.
But, i cant really see what your getting at here.


How can you call someones bluff, with regards to their opinion?

Its like a Christian arguing with an Atheist.
One believes one thing, one believes the other.
Thats what ive been trying to tell you guys, about 'prove this and get facts for that'.
You dont need proof, when you honestly believe something.

No Christians need to prove there is a god - they believe there is, and Atheists cant prove there aint one, lol.


Seems that both my own and Adellions opinions are the same, with regards to us both believe that Late game is harder then start-up.

Now, i never ever said any of you start-up guys are noobs.
Never said that and neither did Adellion.

Not saying im right adellion is wrong I'm saying adellion cannot say really as he is poor at both stages. His only marketable skill is having no life which is a contrary argument to both stages. After all gaming is only playing a game.

But if you compare the 2 games, Start-up and Late game.

• Is farming easier with 10 villages or 500 villages?

• 
  
  In neither cases is farming difficult if your smart. But assuming an equally efficient method (which its only fair to) 500 villages takes more time so requires you to no life more. Not any harder just a lot more boring.
  
  

  [*]Is defending easier against a few players or a whole tribe?
  [*]Is attacking easier against a few players in your 15x15 or 45x45 or what ever, or a planned and coordinated Op. against a whole area of many dozens of villages?

  Easier when you have loads of D's to stack with and can afford to waste more nukes of course. Losing 20 nukes when you have 100 wont matter hugely. it will hurt but not be too detrimental. Losing 1 nuke when you have 1....pretty much ends your farming and leaves you at the mercy of your neighbours.
  Same is true for defending.
  
  

  [*]Is it easier to snipe 1 train or several in the space of a few hours?

  Same as with the farming. Assuming same method and same skill level all it requires in late game is to be sat in front of the pc more. No lifing isnt more difficult its boring....
  
  

  [*]Is is easier to rename a few attacks or several hundred or even thousands?

How hard is it to hit an incoming script over and over? again its a case of no lifing not of added difficulty.

No one is saying start-up guys are noobs, or that they are quitters, or that they cant handle Late game, as if your good at start-up you, with a bit of effort would be good at Late game.

But what myself and Adellion are trying to say, is that we BOTH believe that Late game is harder, overall.
If you count all factors.

Counting all factors late game requires you to do the same mundane tasks more often than start-up...this requires you to spend more time online (and if your adellion apparently to click ok so often you need a new mouse every 6 hours seemingly) but doesnt actually challenge your skills anymore than start up.
Start up has a much smaller margin for error and I therefore consider it more difficult. I have been rank 1 at both 1 village and 100 village stages and can honestly say i enjoy the early game better.

There are elements of the game which become more difficult later on....but also elements which become much easier. For example planning ops becomes much harder with 300 target villages than with 3 target villages. However having 1000 nukes not 10 nukes to use makes your margin for error much larger so much easier.

In my experience early game players time better and your usual high ranked players (with a handful of exceptions admittedly) are a bunch of internal nobling, barb munchers who couldnt time properly if there lives depended on it.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm going to stick my head out here.

I'm not a big fan of start up, but then I've only played a couple of worlds, so dont have a lot of experience of it.

But from what I remember, I'd say start up is more difficult, and does require more effort, than playing say a 3 million point account late game. I mean, lets be honest, unless you're totally stupid, late game you will have all the scripts you need to run your account with as little input as possible. Whereas, start up, you'll not need all the scripts straight away. Farming at start up imo requires a good tactical mind, in order to get the maximum results, in the shortest space of time. Also defending or attacking is far more risky and difficult, because if you make a mistake with one village, it will at best set you back weeks while you replace troops, at worst end your game.
Where as late game, if you have 400 villages, and lose 50 in a day, its a minor setback by comparrison. Farming late game is not as difficult as start up, just more time consuming. Thats if you bother to farm at all.
Early game, timed ops etc, seem more prevalant, and staying up till stupid oclock to send a nuke, or dodge an incoming, is more necessary when you only have a handful of villages. Late game, I never have to stay up to do a timed op, purely because the number of offence villages I have, give me that many more options when launching to meet a specific land time.

I'm a noob at this game, but I enjoy it a great deal. I don't have the huge wealth of experience of a lot of the posters here. But, I can see why some players only play to a certain point then quit. They are the sensible ones. Whereas, if someone told me a year ago I'd be playing a game for over a year, with no end in sight, I'd have said they were mad.
In short I admire the guys who set their target, and have the self discipline to quit when they achieve it. I just wish I had that kind of discipline, instead of becoming a slave to a game lol.

I prefer late game, because I'm lazy.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's funny that the last world I played in I got rimmed for not waking up at 5 am. :lol:

At late-game it is harder to rim people, however that OP that required staying up to 5am was sent to a 1.5mil player who was rank 1 at the time. Within a few hours he had lost 10% of his total points (a drop of 150k) to me.

He has yet to reach rank 1 again.

I think we can chalk that one up as a victory. I think he's quitting.

1 thats actually common, especially with incoming cat trains

2. 2k incomings at 200 villages is a reallyyyyyyy smalllllll op i send bigger solo ones all timed to the second without fake scripts
i have sent more then 10 incomings per village to people as well this world just like i would late game as this world has no fake limit

as a result people stack the wrong vill for a fake train anddddddd

Damage by rams: The wall has been damaged and downgraded from level 20 to level 1
Damage by catapults: The Farm has been damaged and downgraded from level24 to level21

their village becomes that much harder to defend

That is most correct; however I didn't want to come off as overly bias by suggesting 2k incomings is not a lot, when really, it isn't anything special at late-game.

Having been on the same account as you for a couple of days (as a favour to tasha.) You didn't farm, conceded you had no life yet achieved half what I managed despite being online twice as much. And you certainly can't "perfectly time" attacks.

Your argument seems to be late game requires you to be a mindless automaton who hits OK 20000 times a day and has a shocking new fangled toy called an 'alarm clock' :icon_surprised: in order to send nukes at the right time.

You show me the rank one account with a clear lead and 200+ villages your playing on which back sup your opinion and i'll show you the start-up account at rank 1 with 5-10 villages and a clear lead which backs up mine.

Problem with pretending to hold all the cards is when someone calls your bluff you lose.

Sneggy, you were thoroughly useless on that account, you didn't farm at all, don't talk BS with me about being any good on that account. Any cancer on that account was you for being useless and being all hyped.
I don't deny you are good at startup, but you showed none of it on that account. The biggest contribution to farming was Tasha herself, followed by me. As I stated beforehand, I am still learning startup, hence why you might say I was not the sharpest blade on that account. Also, I wasn't *that* active on it, I was more devoted to UK1 than UK4 at the time.

That being said, better a blunt blade than no blade at all, which is what you were; barely lasting days on that account, and on that world. So please don't criticise me for UK4, when you did even less than I did.

I farmed far more than you did on the few days you were on that account, and I learnt a lot about startup, and all credit for that goes to Tasha who inadvertently taught me with her co-playing with me. For that, I am truely grateful. That's not to say there isn't more for me to learn with regards to startup. But all in due time.

My argument is that tasks that require more effort are harder tasks. THIS IS TRUE IN ALL CASES.
This is basic economic theory; this isn't just TW, this is true in real-life contexts.
Thus, as late-game takes more effort to succeed (and by succeed, I mean top-10 ranks), compared to startup top-10, by the basic economic logic I stated prior, one can argue that late-game is therefore harder. Also highlighted is that fewer players play late-game because fewer players have the willpower (which is a talent to have) to play it.

Its amusing that you accuse me of being socially inept when it is widely known many startup accounts are co-played to precisely avoid being socially inept. Are you not co-playing Nauzhror on UK6 (forgive me if I am wrong)? Why is that? Why can't you play on your own?

Reason : If you did, you'd be socially inept for the time you played competitively (top-10 rank).

TW is a game that harms your social interactions if you play competitively without co-playing. Period.
That's not a player's fault. That is how the game is made.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm sorry, if you have a large late game account, its far easier to run than a start up account, if you have the right systems in place. If I wanted to, I could log in for 20 minutes a day and play. Whereas start up, I'd be spending a lot more time actually doing tasks, like farming and building.

But I'm a noob, so I dont know much.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm sorry, if you have a large late game account, its far easier to run than a start up account, if you have the right systems in place. If I wanted to, I could log in for 20 minutes a day and play. Whereas start up, I'd be spending a lot more time actually doing tasks, like farming and building.

But I'm a noob, so I dont know much.

I dunno.
Ive made an exact copy of my old UK2 quick-bar and internal system for my UK6 account, before i deleted there.
Im already finding running this new account incredibly easy.

But i suppose how you have your existing accounts set-up is part of whether you adapt to other worlds quickly and stuff.

 

[DeletedUser]

I dunno.
Ive made an exact copy of my old UK2 quick-bar and internal system for my UK6 account, before i deleted there.
Im already finding running this new account incredibly easy.

But i suppose how you have your existing accounts set-up is part of whether you adapt to other worlds quickly and stuff.

As you know, I'm incredibly sad and have no life other than TW :lol:

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm sorry, if you have a large late game account, its far easier to run than a start up account, if you have the right systems in place. If I wanted to, I could log in for 20 minutes a day and play. Whereas start up, I'd be spending a lot more time actually doing tasks, like farming and building.

But I'm a noob, so I dont know much.

Ever tried farming at late-game, and trying to match startup farming rates?

Try it. Then let me know how you fare.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ever tried farming at late-game, and trying to match startup farming rates?

Try it. Then let me know how you fare.

Just as easy as at start up, bookmark farming is the way. But the point about large late game accounts, is that farming is less important. If you have 500 villages, all built, producing max resources every day, its enough to not require the need to farm.

Farming is different late game.

Late game is easier than start up from what I remember.