The BH Blog - 1st Edition

[DeletedUser]

Older players are always saying for some reason or another that the quality or fun factor in TW has gone downhill. Whilst it's likely that actual player quality through each world has increased. So what are they talking about? After all, is the largest fun factor in TW the pure challenge? The difficulty? Playing real people, pushing things to their limit? I often wondered this, then I think I perhaps stumbled upon an answer.

The answer came from P&P. In older worlds much of the emphasis was often placed on the politics and leadership of tribes, rather than the players who they led. Afterall, it was well known and said that there was a limit to how much skill there is in TW, after that it became about co-ordination, leadership, diplomacy. Yet now a great number of threads on forum and topics are about player skill, the top 20 players, players bragging how good they can time, and then even worse, players criticizing leaders for not being good enough. The latter is the worst crime of all. Players often become arrogant enough to believe they are a gift to a tribe rather than them having a responsibility towards a tribe. Complete and utter arrogance. Yet perhaps perversely, this is not what is wrong. What is wrong, is arrogance accompanied by complete lack of ego.

"Eh?" I hear you say. They are indeed very similar, yet one is in apparent abundance the other shortage.

* an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others
* self: your consciousness of your own identity

* overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors

The subtle difference perhaps being the way in which you show your 'inflated' pride. The key difference being arrogance being belief in deserving due to your own self importance, and ego, belief in your own identity. I use ego to represent qualities of self-loving, loud, self-reassured, but most importantly, that powerful edge of pure character.There is one question to my argument essentially:

Why are there so few leaders?

So few powerful characters?

TW of old was dominated by them. Players seeing leading a tribe successfully as the ultimate goal. What we now see more are often players showing this self-importance on the forums, rather than leading others ingame.

Playing in game is not that hard, bragging on a forum is not that hard, leading a tribe to victory, teaching other players, out-thinking others? Now there is real skill.

However, the argument goes yet deeper. Introducing new leaders to the field, how do we do it? Is it co-incidence that every tribe that succeeds happens to have an experienced leader at its helm? Look at w1.co.uk as an example. CHE!!! led by myself, John Murray and Luke Bishop leading W1N, Revo/evo/w00t was created and heightened by the late Sabretooth a.k.a. Krakkan/Grawler on .net. Every tribe that had a little known leader was swept aside, crushed.

Look on every world, if a tribe is not led by one of experience and skill it fails. This not only means you have a huge divide in the war abilities of tribes, but also P&P becomes very singular, one minded, as the typical elites seem to rule it, and more controversial opinion is often toppled, whether merit is behind it or not.

One of the best worlds ever said to have been played was world 6... you only have to look at the leaders that have graced it to see that; Bloodhood, Henchman,
Matt-/thelostprophet, Krakkan, Alphabonkers, Stonerbus, Larajane, Uldor, Litwol, Teyla, vpar2, Sneggy, Invincible, KV, EstoyLoco, Rakiavik, Pajuno, AK_Iceman.

I could make the list go on for another mile likely. The pure characters, leaders, players, ego, atmosphere. Essentially, the world was driven by character and ego. TW now is largely led by elitist opinion and narrow-mindedness. Anti-family tribes, ally the big tribes and conquer the smaller ones, lets all laugh at tribes who are crap. TW players in their relentless struggle of apparent self-improvement only succeeding in losing their edge.

The game has essentially become a game for narrow minded elitism with an emphasis on playing over leading and independent thought. Tribes have now become a right, not a responsibility and gift, and TW has become progressively less about the big characters and more about the stats. Individuality has essentially slowly been lost from this game from players who look down on others. Have the players who complain about quality going downhill unwittingly been the catalyst in this demise? Too many worlds is no longer a sufficient excuse, with more worlds, there are more players, what is wrong is the whole structure and culture.

:icon_wink:
BH

 

[DeletedUser1189]

Yeah, I've seen randoms appear on the world 1 forums proclaiming there dead forums and we live in a boring world where nothing happens. But your average joe player isint going to post in a world forum with anything as there likely to be flamed, shot down, called something or other. On the other hand we had very disciplined moderation which is actually to be fair a good thing. When you place the two together though you reduce the freedom and willingness for people to start topics of conversation, wether they be flamed or deemed unnecessary or irrelevant.

A rather apt example of pointless flaming outside of world forums as well happened to me recently. http://forum.tribalwars.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5729 Some random message I'd never seen before made me smile when I read it. I posted it thinking if I had seen the funny side other people might be able to share the joke too. Two minutes it took for some random to flame me like he owned the place. Two minutes. Fortunetly im quite thicked skinned and as sad as it is, have kind of grown to expect it. Any new person to the game or forum though, who see's people flaming like that for no other reason than they like to e-peen and try look cool your going to breed as blue says, a culture were no one posts barring the elite of the forums who feel it is there right to post, and all others are treat as some kind of forum underclass.

Had I known someone was gonna flame me in 2 mins I wouldnt of even bothered making my post. I mean whats the point, it was even in the market square where we are supposed to be able to post anything we want and chill out and chat off topic. Would you post knowing your going to be instantly flamed. Im very rarely bothering myself now and I'm a big fan of P&p. Its half the fun of the game I find, but there dosent seem to be any room for good old fashioned banter, P&p propaganda posters and general good humour anymore.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hmmm very interesting and true especially the forums although there are still the odd player like me \ if you get flammed you dont give a S**t but very true words here

 

[DeletedUser]

Just an observation blue hunger, or only the beginning to a tribalwars revolution? About 2 years ago, I began a project (coincidentally, called twcheese) to try and make this game more enjoyable via more knowledgable players, a focus on teamwork, and of course denouncing pathetic practices that remove any competition from the game. It really bugs me how all the experienced players end up in a small group of tribes who ally eachother. People get all pissy about family tribes but if they'd stop to think why the majority of family tribes are formed, then maybe there'd be a new type of free-eek ism (what to call it? cheese-ism?), where instead of screaming "cheap noobs, quit ruining this game" at the people with no experienced leaders to guide them, they'd be screaming it at the self-entitled 'elites' that are only interested in building up high-ranked accounts to pwn the world with eachother.

well i got too busy to get it off the ground and people started to lose interest; eventually the whole thing just kind of died

IMO, worlds that've been open for months are too far progressed to fix. People are too attached to their tribes, and have put too much time/effort into collecting villages to just give it all up. The only realistically obtainable goal is to make future worlds better.

The plan was to get, say, 50 players with leader mentalities together and teach them the basics of the game. Then when a world opened we'd wait for it to expand out of the core, and all join. We'd split up into tribes of 5 by location and mass-recruit till we had several large tribes throughout the world (rule: may not ally eachother), spreading cheese-ism throughout the rim where tons of new players come.

If only that could come to fruition for the possible battle royal... what an amazing game that would be! The rank-chasing 'leets' fighting eachother in the core, with competitive open-entry tribes duking it out on the rim! As opposed to rank-chasers allying eachother in the core collecting villages from helpless open-entry tribes allying eachother on the rim? Yes, please!

Now, this whole development of the community turning from team players to arrogant solo players, I think is mostly for the first couple months of worlds. I attribute this to the rapid creation of new game worlds that wasn't practiced in the early days of tribalwars.net. Instead of staying and getting involved in the world as it develops, these 'leet' players hop from world to world to claim as many "i was top 20 on world blablabla and also world doodaday. Oh yeah? well I was top 10 on world dankadoodle and whopsyflop AND rank 1 for half a day on world tipsybobble!"s as they can to show off how 'good' they are.

Sorry, but that doesn't make you a good player. It makes you a bad player. Because you join in, ruin the game for dozens of newbies, and quit as soon as the next world comes out to repeat the process. I hate to break it to you, but there is no skill involved in simcity (the aspect of the game that involves doing the logistics of rapid growth and implementing them), only knowledge. Actually I love to break it to you.

But I digress. A leader leads by example. We need to change this game back to Tribal Wars! Not tribal hugs or solo hugs or solo races. Tribal Wars!

 

[DeletedUser1508]

I approve of this thread... not that you need my approval anyway :icon_rolleyes:

I am nowhere near an old school player myself (w24), and therefore cannot really compare the atmosphere and PnP of earlier worlds to the ones that are opening these day. However, I have been kinda around for a while, and I do think that a huge amount of space for improvement in the quality of forum PnP and skill distribution throughout ingame tribes..

/begins rant
I think that one of the main reasons that create the large gap between 'elite' tribes and 'noob' tribes is that there is an excessive amount of premades. Most of the active forum users join a premade, creating a lower spread of skill when the world is formed. Since the 'elites' usually know each other well, they often join the same tribe. This leads to lack of decent leaders in a world, which leads to a lack of decent tribes.

I think that another reason is the amount of hate that gets dealt out to family/noob tribes. What is so wrong with them? Who decided that family tribes were bad in the first place? I think that it has become a 'cool thing' to point and laugh at other peoples failures instead of trying to help them get better. But really, they don't often have much choice. Since all the good players join a limited amount of tribes, the less decent tribes have to have some way to stand a chance. The only thing that is really left to them is to ally/make families.

So people, lighten the atmosphere. Stop the hating. Stop useless flaming. When you don't like a tribe, make PnP that gives a better read than "oMg, tis trib iz so fail cuz tey hav ful membrs". And lastly, try not joining a premade. Join a 'mass-recruiter' ingame and see what it is like to be smashed by a tribe full of 'elites'. Maybe you will gain some appreciation for tribes that make alliances.

/ends rant

 

[DeletedUser]

You both make excellent points. Fully agree with you cheese, the fact that good players band together is something that is cowardly, easy and actually if anything against their 'warring' spirit. Whilst I fully agree players rarely realise the fact that a leader who can lead hundreds will always be a hundred times more valuable than the player who can farm and conquer more.

Liking Red's point also, premade just increases the problem above.

Elitism has clearly gone way too far. Unless anyone thinks otherwise?

 

[DeletedUser]

Good players who usually band together with other good players don't normally (in my experience) do so for security or ingame benefits but rather because they enjoy being in the same tribe as each other for personality reasons.
And one of the reasons why some of them became quality players is due to exposure and guidance from the experienced players whom they now band together with earlier on.

 

[DeletedUser]

Good players who usually band together with other good players don't normally (in my experience) do so for security or ingame benefits but rather because they enjoy being in the same tribe as each other for personality reasons.
And one of the reasons why some of them became quality players is due to exposure and guidance from the experienced players whom they now band together with earlier on.

You say that but I disagree, been invited to too many to count premades of people I hardly know as I am sure you have also. In most cases, it is a hunt for the good to best players to get them to help their tribe.

 

[DeletedUser]

Premades that rush to stuff as many big names as possible are at fault, yes. But to be honest i don't really know any tribes (from W20 onwards) that I would class as good that does this, and i don't know many players who i would class as good that would join such tribes. Middle range players and mid range tribes do this sorta thing.

Now on the other end of the spectrum, a group of people who have become friends over the game and INCIDENTALLY also happen to be top tier players sticking together is perfectly alright because the reason for their being in the same tribe as each other is not playing ability but because they enjoy each other's company.

 

[DeletedUser]

Premades that rush to stuff as many big names as possible are at fault, yes. But to be honest i don't really know any tribes (from W20 onwards) that I would class as good that does this, and i don't know many players who i would class as good that would join such tribes. Middle range players and mid range tribes do this sorta thing.

Now on the other end of the spectrum, a group of people who have become friends over the game and INCIDENTALLY also happen to be top tier players sticking together is perfectly alright because the reason for their being in the same tribe as each other is not playing ability but because they enjoy each other's company.

Even if those premades don't exist a long time, they have already done the damage. By grouping those good players early on and then them perhaps quitting later when they fail whilst having other players, perhaps newers ones, left to their own resources often decreases the main skill base.

And even in the best of premades, BD for example, there were players invited who had only played with one or two of the full list of starting players. It happens across the spectrum.

 

[DeletedUser]

I was there when BD was started and the tribe had about 10/12 premade members that were gathered on the same day that W30 was released. (vpar/russki, myself/champion, qwe4rty, krono5, cabanna cigara, amion, mohua, seductive dominatrix, ioanna illiadi and a couple of others) every other member or account that BD has had from the beginning of that server to present day has been recruited ingame. this does not at all conform to the description you made in your Op. In additon to which pretty much every player from BD that played W30 long term was in the group that was recruited ingame later on. Almost none of the premade members (except qwe4rty and myself) remained in W30 (myself sporadically). The people doing great things in W30 over the past 1 year were all recruits and not premade members.

By grouping those good players early on and then them perhaps quitting later when they fail whilst having other players, perhaps newers ones, left to their own resources often decreases the main skill base.

The main skill base has not declined at all. In fact I strongly belive that there are more good players who have surfaced since W19 or so onwards than there were before. In fact, i feel that if one were to make a list of say 50 players who could be considered the cream of tw, i doubt if the "old school" would even have 20 representatives (these are very rough numbers, their sole purpose is to give the general picture).
It is true that world quality has decreased but by no means has player quality in tw gone anywhere but up. The decline in world quality is due to other reasons.

 

[DeletedUser]

I was there when BD was started and the tribe had about 10/12 premade members that were gathered on the same day that W30 was released. (vpar/russki, myself/champion, qwe4rty, krono5, cabanna cigara, amion, mohua, seductive dominatrix, ioanna illiadi and a couple of others) every other member or account that BD has had from the beginning of that server to present day has been recruited ingame. this does not at all conform to the description you made in your Op.

Myself and my brother both had the ability to join BD from the start as we were told of its existancedays before w30 starting and told we could join. Pow.

 

[DeletedUser]

Im unaware of that, however the people who ultimately did start W30 in BD pretty much all were gathered while i was there. The final member list was a very last minute affair.

 

[DeletedUser]

Premades that rush to stuff as many big names as possible are at fault, yes. But to be honest i don't really know any tribes (from W20 onwards) that I would class as good that does this, and i don't know many players who i would class as good that would join such tribes. Middle range players and mid range tribes do this sorta thing.

Now on the other end of the spectrum, a group of people who have become friends over the game and INCIDENTALLY also happen to be top tier players sticking together is perfectly alright because the reason for their being in the same tribe as each other is not playing ability but because they enjoy each other's company.

Ilike joining premades that i may know like 2 or 3 players due to wanting to make new friends top tier and average due to personallity and how close to my timeline they are.
this isnt to say that i would join a tribe of real good players but id prefer to play with friends in a tribe. also i like to join to learn the way that the leaders lead there tribes for example BH would easily be my favourite leader and also a good one but not the most efficient. he leads well impliments good tactics etc but the most efficient leaders are harsher in my opinion.

so i do agree with pervis but i could never fully agree with him

 

[DeletedUser]

@ Pervis
Pervie, you are making valid points and drawing the wrong conclusions, so it's somewhat hard to argue with you but...

Players band together for the social factor, yes. but...
much of the social part is simply the need to satisfy their own arrogance, as only the players they know and talk are the ones worthy of competing with on an equal in-tribe terms. <- insightful "quote"

As for the BD and premades that gather big names I think BH explained it perfectly. In the BH part of my post I think i show WHY such premades cause damage even if they exist only a few days.

________________________________________________________________________________________

@BH OP
BH... you can't compare very early .net worlds to what we have now. It's like comparing Ceasar, Lionheart, Napoleon and Patton.

The thing about younger worlds was the lack of what you call "elitism" and as you nicely point out it made the leaders much more important. What more, the players needed the leaders to show them the direction. But, extending the previous metaphor, since then players have invented full plate, guns and even tanks.

Lets put it across quite frankly. Premades are the fault of those who make them. Because Pervis got 40 people in his premade, BH got 40 people and Uldor got 40 people as well, there is no space for the newbs. But has it ever occurred to you that you might join with less? Perhaps even without those that will quit before the first noble if only they get spiked?

Yes, the players have become arrogant.That's an indisputable fact. But they became so because they knew leaders will fight over them and no-one will hold the previous wrongs against them when a new world is starting (that also goes for me :icon_redface. Maybe if people heard more often from the leaders that are considered to be top quality "I heard you left your tribe without a word on W... , I don't think we will recruit you" then the arrogance would start to diminish. A statement "You sir, are a fail." coming from leaders who can afford to say that, will maybe start some flaming, but will increase the feeling of pride of the players who got in.

The last statement to the original arguments.

Pride is the thing you seem to have not considered. If a player has an invite handed tothem on a golden platter they will become arrogant and not care for the tribe. If the selection criteria is MUCh stricter, the player will have to work to get the invite, invoking a feeling of pride about being in the said tribe. Afterwards there is nothing stopping the tribe from growing, even taking best players from weaker tribes. but the players have to prove themselves in the world first, and be PROUD that they were offered an invite.

Last but not least.
The way war and after-war merges were treated was a killer of good players in this game.

Everyone knew that when they survive (which is a contradiction to "fight" :icon_rolleyes they WILL get an invite from the tribe they are warring. EGGS and MCD are coming to my mind as an example most suitable for that. You know how that ended, and I know how that ended. Thankfully the merges are starting to cease, but are still commonplace enough to make the point valid.

Just my 5 cents,
The Revenant

________________________________________________________________________________________


PS: From what I wrote above it might seem I disagree. I was being harsh but I do agree. I wrote it from a self-concious player perspective to add to the leader perspectives which appear above.

 

[DeletedUser]

@ Pervis
Pervie, you are making valid points and drawing the wrong conclusions, so it's somewhat hard to argue with you but...

Players band together for the social factor, yes. but...
much of the social part is simply the need to satisfy their own arrogance, as only the players they know and talk are the ones worthy of competing with on an equal in-tribe terms. <- insightful "quote"

As for the BD and premades that gather big names I think BH explained it perfectly. In the BH part of my post I think i show WHY such premades cause damage even if they exist only a few days.

________________________________________________________________________________________

IF good players band together because they consider players under a certain skill level too "low" to associate with, then they are wrong and are a negative effect on the game.
But for my part, I've almost never seen this attitude. Good players often just so happen to also be fun personalities and quite often they let in people who (at the time of joining the group) are quite unknown and unpolished but become amazing players in their own right later on due to association with and guidance from top class players within the group.
Ive never seen a recurring group of good players (such as people in uteach, or n00bs, or Random) that weren't always willing to take on intelligent people who were new to the game and make top notch players out of them.
A lot of the top class of players today got to the level that they're at by being trained by such groups of good players.

Its a formula as old as humanity : Hang with the best to become the best.

BD certainly had its share of less known players (less known than the people in the premade portion of the tribe) who improved outta sight during W30 and are now considered equals to the premade members any day of the week. Examples of such would be canine, pinky, badlapje, twmistress, etc.

And its not restricted to BD, almost every tribe I've had the oppertunity to be includent a contigent of relative "newbies" that were given every oppertunity to improve themselves. And most of them proved reliable enough to do so drastically.

So while i agree that the 7-8 premades (where most people barely know each other or have just heard of each other) that get made for every server before its release ruin the quality of the game, I would firmly stand by my stance that "cliques" of good players who enjoying playing alongside each other and do so in recurring servers are one of the most positive factors in the game.

 

[DeletedUser14]

I would have to agree with pervie on this one, I joined the 50th server on .de recently with purple predator and the rest of the gang, mattcurr, fallenangel pervie was even there, and they were very helpful to anyone that wanted help.
Matt even made a thread where he was asking people to ask him questions. Then even when people began to become inactive on .de50 they offered advice on how to start up on .net world 40.

This just shows that these players, which are some of the best in tw were offering eveyone there help. I think they like to see some of the less experienced people to learn so that the overall skill of the average player will be higher.

 

[DeletedUser]

Some very insightful reading, these two quotes stand out for me...

If a player has an invite handed tothem on a golden platter they will become arrogant and not care for the tribe. If the selection criteria is MUCh stricter, the player will have to work to get the invite, invoking a feeling of pride about being in the said tribe.

Ive never seen a recurring group of good players (such as people in uteach, or n00bs, or Random) that weren't always willing to take on intelligent people who were new to the game and make top notch players out of them.

Both these comments are spot on!

There are the two ends of the spectrum when it comes to elite players that are willing to help out the newer folk. In my experience i have come across very few players i would class as top flight, that are unwilling to let newbies in if they show some degree of intelligence and willing to learn, and 9 times out of 10, when that newbie does get on the inside, what they lack in experience they make up for in enthusiasm and determination, which is mainly due to the pride factor, which Revenant explained so well.

Unfortunately even the best of players that have been roped into joining a world drastically lack these fundamentals, and it makes the experience for everyone else in the tribe... a bit dry. Maybe its because they are already playing other worlds, maybe its because their heart isnt in it or maybe its because the old jokes are worn out... whatever the reason, my point here is that perhaps the enthusiastic and ready to learn newbie is sometimes a better investment than the old warhorse?

Obviously none of this can be proven and its down to everyones own tastes and opinions. Not everyone is a teacher, but everyone is a student.

 

[DeletedUser]

Some very insightful reading, these two quotes stand out for me...
whatever the reason, my point here is that perhaps the enthusiastic and ready to learn newbie is sometimes a better investment than the old warhorse?

Obviously none of this can be proven and its down to everyones own tastes and opinions. Not everyone is a teacher, but everyone is a student.

As has been said previously I think a mixture of the 'old warhorse' and enthusiastic newbies makes for an even balance also not forgetting to invite a tribe scapegoat who everyone can blame stuff on. Usually Red or Kam make good candidates.
Everyone started somewhere and I for one am greatful to the people who gave me opportunities .


<3

 

[DeletedUser]

As has been said previously I think a mixture of the 'old warhorse' and enthusiastic newbies makes for an even balance also not forgetting to invite a tribe scapegoat who everyone can blame stuff on. Usually Red or Kam make good candidates.
Everyone started somewhere and I for one am greatful to the people who gave me opportunities .


<3

Totally agree, especially with this point... :icon_biggrin:

not forgetting to invite a tribe scapegoat who everyone can blame stuff on.